Turkey got a date from the EU!

[VetLegion]

germanos,

No. We're just a passing station as they head for Germany and Netherlands

In the folk memory, contacts with Turks remain alive in stories, customs and sayings. Calling someone a Turk is sooner an insult than praise. But it was so long ago no real bad feelings are left.

We also have a pragmatic saying: "Turčine, za nevolju kume" which translates roughly as "Turk, in trouble godfather" and means, hell with principles, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

So no, we're not uneasy about Turkish membership, as a people, we simply don't care.

[germanos]

Originally posted by VetLegion
germanos,

No. We're just a passing station as they head for Germany and Netherlands

Oh, we already have plenty. A few more won't hurt.

You are aware that Berlin is Turkeys third most populous city, are you

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Pekka
VetLegion, well come on over

I think the answer to that one is easy (Greek culture vs. Turkish culture vs. Finnish culture).. Greeks and Turks must be very much closer to each other than to us.

Ha!

Exactly what I meant!

I mean you and Greeks are both Christians, but VERY different Christians, and you don't have much other in common except one side of the Euro coins.

Maybe it has something to do with the weather, I don't know. But to me southern cultures seem to be more parallel than up here in the north.

I think it does follow climate pretty well. People around mediterranean are quite similar, be it in Croatia, Italy or southern France.

There are differences, but you don't notice them if you are not from here. And I don't think southerners could tell a difference between a Finn, a Swede and a Dane based on appearance or behaviour either.

Is it a good thing, sure, I'd be bored if everyone was like us. It's not necessarily a good thing if everyone was like us, it might be a bad thing. We're quite boring, but it suits us.

I don't think you're boring. The main difference I see going north to south is that the further south you go, cheaper talk gets.

Frankly I often don't like that. I don't like it when someone says, "ok, tommorow" and means "ok, some time between tommorow and next week".

But on the other hand, it's not healthy to be too tense either.

One needs a good combo in life

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by germanos

Oh, we already have plenty. A few more won't hurt.

Isn't Netherlands becoming more hostile to immigration because of the latest incidents?

Sad, because if there was ever something in Europe resembling a melting pot, I guess it would be Netherlands.

You are aware that Berlin is Turkeys third most populous city, are you

I knew that there are many Turks in Germany, but didn't know that.

There are many ex-Yugoslavian Gastarbeiters in Germany too. They didn't integrate too well either, despite being Christian.

[Pekka]

Yeah it's definitely more relaxed down there. And some places have siesta etc.. and that has to be because of the warm weather.. you get tired down there, well at least I do or would, so better relax a bit. Unlike in here you don't have those effects, on the contrary you better be moving. So that one I do like, the relaxed thing. Then again southern europeans are famous for being hot tempered . We don't have that thing, we have the 'blood is boiling' thing but it's very different.

But one thing I DO like in here is that talk is not cheap. It goes everywhere, you say what you mean, thus you sometimes don't say anything, because a) you don't have anything to really say or b) it would be insulting. That leads to a place where we are notoriously horrible at things like small talk and uncomfortable talking to people we don't know. But then again the good side is you always know where you're at, and you know it means 16.35 if they say 16.35.. not 16.40, not 17.00 but 16.35 and preferrably 16.30. There's no second guessing. It's clear and set for all parties.

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by VetLegion
There are differences, but you don't notice them if you are not from here. And I don't think southerners could tell a difference between a Finn, a Swede and a Dane based on appearance or behaviour either.

Oh, there are differences. Let me help you out a bit:

[Combat Ingrid]

1. A typical Dane

[Combat Ingrid]

2. A typical Finn

[Combat Ingrid]

3. A typical Swede

[VetLegion]

I'd hit the Swede

I can understand the Finn. They are still traumatized from the Winter war and think they have to be ready for a new one any day now. So obviously long hair is a nono for a combatant. Her dress is camouflage so she can fit in the forest nicely if need arises, which could happen any time now. Her neck decoration is reminiscent of barbed wire - this is a sign of position in army, only veteran women can wear it after they have destroyed five tanks using a screwdriver. The enterprise thingy is a new Nokia device in the shape of shuriken, poisoned so the Ruskie won't survive a non lethal hit.

...

There is no explanation for the Dane.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
No matter how many inconsistencies exist in the issue, it's now "you've gotta recognize our brother, how else are you going to join in". Yeah, right. :applause:

I don't think you get it. This is a practical issue: you cannot enter if you don't recognize Cyprus, no more than you cannot enter if you wouldn't recognize Malta either. Your history of double standards that would have taken place is pretty much irrelevant in this sense.
And in case it makes you feel any better, we will shove Turkey's membership down Cyprus' throat as we will shove the recognition of Cyprus down Turkey's throat.

[germanos]

Originally posted by VetLegion


Isn't Netherlands becoming more hostile to immigration because of the latest incidents?

Sad, because if there was ever something in Europe resembling a melting pot, I guess it would be Netherlands.

I knew that there are many Turks in Germany, but didn't know that.

There are many ex-Yugoslavian Gastarbeiters in Germany too. They didn't integrate too well either, despite being Christian.

Immigration is a hot issue, but at has been for quite some time. (I'm speaking decades here)
I must say that the murder of Theo van Gogh didn't change that much. The issue has shifted to the issue of extremism.

Personally I don't have major problems with immigrants, and the issue of integration is really a two way street.
You should know that the official designation of a 'foreigner' (the PC term here is 'allochtoon') is anybody who doesn't have two full-blooded Dutch as parents. I guess it is pretty hard to become/feel integrated if you will be designated an 'allochtoon'in any case.

But returning back to the Turks in the Netherlands, a recent study showed that it is expected that among the 'small business owners', the largest group will be the Turks in one or two years.
I'm aware such figures don't tell the full story, but one cannot discard such figures either. (and yes, by definition all the young turks born here, with either one or two parents being immigrants will fall under the category 'Turks' in this survey.)



Regarding Turkey's entry into the EU, I do not hold much opposition. I think Turkey would fit very well within the EU. Turkey shares as much with the EU as Slovakia, the Baltic states and the future members of Rumania, Bulgaria and Croatia.
In fact, I think Turkey is one of the examples that Islam and Western Enlightment are not mutually exclusive, and it is a bless for Europe that such a state wants to join us. If the west is to spread Enlightment and combat muslim extremism, one of the best courses of action would be to welcome those muslims that share the views of Enlightment.

The EU was formed to prevent a WWIII through economic cooperation. If the EU is too cling to that incentive (as I think it should), then the EU should try very hard to get Turkey aboard.

And as I argued earlier, many Turks already live in Europe, and as far as I know they have not caused major trouble in the last 40 years. I don't see why they would turn nasty all of a sudden when their motherland has become part of the EU.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Notice the weird shape of my country?

Croatia was settled (in about 6th-7th century) by Slavs coming from the northeast. If Turks hadn't come in 15th century from the southeast and carved a big chunk out, Croatia would today be round and pretty!

I want Bosnia back as precondition for Turkish EU entry

As far as I know, Zagreb was never taken by the Turks however a greater part of Slavonia was under Turkish rule for some time. Check out the following map, where you can see Bosnia acquired during Mehmet II, and Hungary and surrounding lands during Suleyman the Magnificent.

I guess the current line between Bosnia and Croatia became distinct as the Austrians moved south after 1683 but stopped at Bosnia.

[Ancyrean]

.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Ancyrean,

Turkey is a democracy today, from what I understand. But what about the paradox we much hear about, that if Turkey was fully democratic it would become radically muslim through elections?

I remember from a few years ago reading that a leader of some islamic party (the one in power now?) was banned from politics because he wrote a fundamentalist poem in highschool or something.

Is radical islamism for political parties banned by law, or was it banned by the military?

Basically, fundamentalist religious parties bent on establishing sharia etc are banned, just like Nazism is banned in Germany. This is the law of the land and previously it was the constitutional court that enforced it by closing down such parties. The army is there as the ultimate stick, as a reminder that all dreams of an Islamic state are utopiae.

The members of the closed-down party then appealed to the European Court on the grounds that their right to express themselves and form political parties are violated, but the court quickly dismissed them by saying you have to first accept the rules of democracy and commit to its continuance to benefit from its freedoms.

Yes you are right, the current Prime Minister of ours was a firebrand preacher and the Mayor of Istanbul some 10 years ago, and the poem reciting was only the final drop on a full glass on his account. He spent some months in jail, disappeared from the political scene for years and when he came back he was a moderate who denounced sharia and praised the supremacy of secularism.

And if there is no threat of military intervention any more (which EU requires, but so does NATO, hmmm), what will stop Turkey from electing some radicals to power?

My questions may sound funny to you, but I think they are quite serious. So far Turkey has been the more advanced muslim country with regards to separation of church and state. But there was always powerful military in the background, making sure of that.

What when it stops being so?

The answer is the legal system, the laws and the constitutional court. Also there's the fact that fundamentalist Islam never commanded the support of more than a marginal section of the society. The EU and the gradual rise of life standards are only to reinforce this situation.

Islamic revolution a la Iran is surreal in the Turkish context, but wouldn't you agree that many with limited knowledge/interest to distinguish between Turkey and some other disagreeable examples in the Muslim world would find this hard to differentiate?

Of course, if one would argue that a country's being Christian is the only ultimate guarantee that no Islamic revolution take place, then there's no way Turkey would meet the requirements of this proposition.