Turkey got a date from the EU!

[RGBVideo]

Or limited free speech by banning Muslim head scarves.

What has it to do with freedom of speech?

I wasn't aware that they had invaded the Ivory Coast for chocolate

Why on earth is this myth still alive? Cocoa is not vital part of the French economy. The claim that France led an UN administred coalition to upkeep peace and avoid genocide in the area in order to keep the price of a trivial commodity (which can be produced in France, btw) down is just absurd.

October 3rd 2005 for opening the talks.

Opening for 'the talks'... yeah, right. That means jack ****, and I think we both know it.

It's not like our leaders wouldn't have been able to talk with each other before this... I ment the date when they'll be accepted.

[Atahualpa]

What percentage of turks would want to join the EU?

Btw, a recent poll in a newspaper here shows that turks are seen as the least willing to integrate.
The turks that have come to work and live in Europe, have not really established a positive image.

[Colon™]

I'm pretty much undecided, but I do know that if they want to get in, they will have to recognize Cyprus. You can't enter a club if you deny one of its members' right to exist you know.

I also hope that we can agree they can only enter on our terms and our terms only. (provided we do not demand higher standards than we did from past applicants)

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by Namaste


Actually, they really didn't if I remember correctly. I believe there is a 6 year restriction on movement for citizens of the new central and eastern European member states. The EU would certainly be within its rights to impose a similar restriction on Turkish citizens once they enter the EU.

every EU country blocked full rights for eastern europeans for 7 years, with the exception of britain, ireland and denmark. and of course every country would be well within its rights to do that, i'm just questioning if mine in particular actually would.

[Colon™]

But you haven't had a flood regardless, right?

[C0ckney]

i'm not sure how many have come here nationwide. 100s have however moved to where my parents live, which is a very unremarkable part of rural england, so i'm guessing that there's been a fair old number come over in the country as a whole.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Agreed. I wonder how much of the argument is a pretext to mask something else, and how much of it is an actual attempt to have a unified culture centered about what little we have in common, i.e. Christianty.
It is a dumb argument IMHO. If tomorrow the rising, threatening power is polytheistic India, I imagine we'd try to form a great "Monotheistic Alliance" with the Muslims to counter it. And all the people who explain today that we must make a Christian Europe, will tell us how much us all monotheists have in common

You're probably right. It's always a conflict and a common threat that bring people together, and EU was supposed to represent a new philosophy to change that pattern. In that sense, Turkey's membership process might be the first true test of that philosophy.

This makes me sad as well. I had once the opportunity to talk with a Turk about it, when France officially acknowledged the existence of the Armenian genocide. His disappointment was very strong. I can only imagine how much stronger the disappointment is, even among the Francophiles now, given that the French public opinion as a whole doesn't merely reject what we percieve as a crime on the past, but reject the very Turkish country

Overall, I think the feeling in Turkey about France after the genocide slant and the recent EU episode is still not outright animosity, but a certain bitterness is definitely building up. The fact that virtually all the politicans that matter in France (like Sarkozy) are very hostile towards Turkey only makes it more worrying, in the sense that there's no strong counter-voice. It's as if everybody's afraid to say anything positive about Turkey, as if the whole issue is politically poisonous...

In related news, Chirac apparently was the only EU leader (apart from the Greek Cypriot, of course) who did not congratulate Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister, after the summit. Actually, he walked away in haste in the other direction as soon as he saw Erdogan approaching in his direction.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
What percentage of turks would want to join the EU?

According to the latest polls, it's as high as 70-75%.

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Btw, a recent poll in a newspaper here shows that turks are seen as the least willing to integrate.

Once again, what are the minimum parametres of "integration"? If there were, say, 1.000.000 Spaniards moving to Germany, when would they be considered integrated? Would there be a need for them to "integrate" inthe first place? If not, why it's not the same for the Turks?

Originally posted by Atahualpa
The turks that have come to work and live in Europe, have not really established a positive image.

A vast majority came from villages from central-eastern Anatolia in the 1960s, a time when many villages didn't even have electricity and cars were a curiosity for many. They were particularly selected to be as little qualified as possible, since such jobs were the most in demand in the "Wirtschaftswunder" era of Germany. They reacted by clamming up, and were not helped by the Germans to feel at home, treated as "guests" who were supposed to leave when the show's over, so they had even less incentives to even learn the language.

As a result, yes they did not "establish a postive image". But the inttelligent, intellectual and progressive-minded European Public did not care to realise Turkey itself changed tremendously since the 1960s. I guess the European image of Turkey is still an extrapolation from the first generation Turks in Europe (enter here "you can marry 4 women in your country?" "you don't look Turkish to me!" etc etc).

European parochialism:
European self-righteousness:

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Colon
I'm pretty much undecided, but I do know that if they want to get in, they will have to recognize Cyprus. You can't enter a club if you deny one of its members' right to exist you know.

I also hope that we can agree they can only enter on our terms and our terms only. (provided we do not demand higher standards than we did from past applicants)

Here is the chronicle of European double standards about Cyprus:

1) The very fact that "Cyprus" was admitted in the Union despite the ongoing crisis on the island. This unprecedented decision is against the hitherto established European custom for not importing problems into the EU and for having the parties solve it by themselves beforehand. It therefore had the net result of making the EU a direct party in what was essentially a bilateral problem.

2) The EU threw its full weight behind a very comprehensive UN plan for the unification of the island. Turkey changed its 30 year old policies to accept that plan which foresaw the withdrawal of Turkish troops from the island and establishment of a federal union based on equal partnership.

The EU not only endorsed that plan as the most fair solution to the Cyprus problem, but made its adoption a requirement in the accession protocol for "Cyprus", for "Cyprus" to become a member. This in addition to the fact that the agreements founding "the Republic of Cyprus" in 1960 stipulate that Cyprus cannot be a member of any third grouping in which both Turkey and Greece are not both members.

3) The Turks in the north voted in support for the plan, Greeks against. Despite the accession protocol and despite the founding agreements of the very Cyprus for which Greek Cypriots have a pretension to stand for, the government of the south was admitted in the Union with the right to represent the whole island. Nevermind the fact that they themselves rejected the very plan that would truly made them representatives of the whole island.

4) There was much indignation in Europe about the un-European conduct of the Greek Cypriot government in the referendum, much chastisement of the Greek Cypriots, much talk of the need to reward the Turkish Cypriots for their courage, that it would be unfair to punish them, that it would be fair to lift the isolation of the North, yadda yadda yadda, blah blah blah in the truest European fashion of sincerity.

5) Not only none of these European promises did not materialise, Europeans suddenly realised that hey, Greek Cypriots now have a veto power over decisions now that they are in. Never mind all of the above, now Turkey is required to "recognise" the Greek South as the sole representative of the whole island.

No matter how many inconsistencies exist in the issue, it's now "you've gotta recognize our brother, how else are you going to join in". Yeah, right. :applause:

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


We need more Turkish ladies to aid you in your efforts!

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


European parochialism:
European self-righteousness:

This IS really all it boils down to.

Eurocom doesn't realize his deep set prejudices against the "uncivilized" Turkey.

It's sorta like the way the US and Canada look down on Mexico and the rest of any other country south of the Rio Grande.

[Pekka]

No, that's only partial truth. The other half of the story is, Turkey does not meet the standards, YET.

It's all useless to ***** and whine before that. Showing attitude look in the mirror. Meet the requirements. Then join.

[Ted Striker]

But you admit that it's part of the problem, and bigger part than I think you would like to admit.

And I already looked in the mirror in my last post.

Thanks.

[Pekka]

I didn't mean YOU Ted I meant TUrkey..

Soooo.. but sure it's part of the problem. Many in the EU just don't want Turkey to be part of it. Many are afraid that they will become the biggest player. Many KNOW it will become the top player anyway, so big ones should be looking out for that one.

Many are afraid that masses of Turkish people start flooding the Europe in hopes for better living conditions.

Many are afraid that this will turn Europe into more muslim place.

Many just don't plain lke Turkey and are bit of racist about it as well.

These are all legit reasons, except maybe not the last one..

But with what I said before I meant, that Turkey has to keep on going forward, keep making the human rights issue more to the standard, growing their economy etc. This is the issue I don't like hearing about that 'we should have the right to join'. NO one has the RIGHT to join. It's not a ****ing charity. Either put up or shut up. That's the way I see it. So far Turkey has been putting up so I hope that trend continus and they will reach and meet the standards.

[Ted Striker]

Sorry, I misunderstood