Turkey got a date from the EU!

[Pekka]

Besides, what many don't realize is that Turkey is actually very western like country already. I don't think that TUrkey is a threat as far as radicals go, I just don't see it like that.. they've pretty moderate on that one, and the fact is they are pretty western to begin with. BUt many people see them as a big muslim country and thinks terrorism. I think it's the exact opposite in those regards. And it IS a gateway, so that's great chance for EU... I do believe there's lots of money to be made and both parties will benefit from each other in the long run greatly. So I'm all for Turkey joining. But not until they meet the requirements.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
Overall, I think the feeling in Turkey about France after the genocide slant and the recent EU episode is still not outright animosity, but a certain bitterness is definitely building up.

I can understand that. At least, the genocide issue does correspond to the French values, so it's somehow "worth" it to disappoint the Turks about it. But the rejection of Turkey's entry in the EU is vile indeed. It's not supposed to be us at all.

The fact that virtually all the politicans that matter in France (like Sarkozy) are very hostile towards Turkey only makes it more worrying, in the sense that there's no strong counter-voice. It's as if everybody's afraid to say anything positive about Turkey, as if the whole issue is politically poisonous...

Actually, that's not true. Sarkozy is indeed against it, but we have quite a few pols (Chirac himself) who support Turkey's entry. Actually, most French pols do support Turkey's entry. The problem lies really with the population.
It seems that the population is evolving toward a more positive attitude (37% now support you guys, while 33% did a month ago), but it may be a hiccup of the Statistics.

If you read French, this Comparison between countries is interesting. 25% of the French opponents to Turkey's entry say it is not geographically in Europe (another poll has it at 35%). Whereas in other countries that support Turkey's entry, the fact that Turkey belongs to Europe is the main reason for support

In related news, Chirac apparently was the only EU leader (apart from the Greek Cypriot, of course) who did not congratulate Erdogan, the Turkish Prime Minister, after the summit. Actually, he walked away in haste in the other direction as soon as he saw Erdogan approaching in his direction.

I haven't heard about it, but it wouldn't be the first time our dear leader did a blunder like that He walked away just like this when Iraq's Prime Minister came to the EU. And it does belong to his diplomatic style "these countries have missed an opportunity to keep quiet"

[VetLegion]

I say we throw Finland out and let Turkey in

What has Finland ever done for me?? Nothing! It just sits there!

[VetLegion]

By the way, if someone has a historical reason to be pissed of at Turks, it's us Croatians

Exibit A:



Notice the weird shape of my country?

Croatia was settled (in about 6th-7th century) by Slavs coming from the northeast. If Turks hadn't come in 15th century from the southeast and carved a big chunk out, Croatia would today be round and pretty!

I want Bosnia back as precondition for Turkish EU entry

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Pekka

Many are afraid that masses of Turkish people start flooding the Europe in hopes for better living conditions.

Many are afraid that this will turn Europe into more muslim place.

Many just don't plain lke Turkey and are bit of racist about it as well.

These are all legit reasons, except maybe not the last one..

NO one has the RIGHT to join. It's not a ****ing charity.

I agree totally. Main reason why people oppose Turkey's membership is because it is muslim and has a different culture, some admit it and some try to veil it in concerns about Turkish economy, minority rights, etc.

About culture, does a Greek have more in common with a Turk, or with a Finn? Serious question, no easy reply.

I agree with Ancyrean that it doesn't make sense to insist on christianity as Europe's common denominator. It should be respect for human rights, freedom of movement and the common market.

Colon put it well. If Turkey will join EU, it will be meeting EU's criteria, not vice versa. So I don't see a reason to worry about that.

[VetLegion]

Ancyrean,

Turkey is a democracy today, from what I understand. But what about the paradox we much hear about, that if Turkey was fully democratic it would become radically muslim through elections?

I remember from a few years ago reading that a leader of some islamic party (the one in power now?) was banned from politics because he wrote a fundamentalist poem in highschool or something.

Is radical islamism for political parties banned by law, or was it banned by the military?

And if there is no threat of military intervention any more (which EU requires, but so does NATO, hmmm), what will stop Turkey from electing some radicals to power?

My questions may sound funny to you, but I think they are quite serious. So far Turkey has been the more advanced muslim country with regards to separation of church and state. But there was always powerful military in the background, making sure of that.

What when it stops being so?

[germanos]

Originally posted by VetLegion
By the way, if someone has a historical reason to be pissed of at Turks, it's us Croatians

...

I want Bosnia back as precondition for Turkish EU entry

Not that Croatia has (at the moment) any demands to make

When is Croatia due to become a member?

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Ancyrean


According to the latest polls, it's as high as 70-75%.

And what are the reasons? Why would they want to be a full member of the european union?

Once again, what are the minimum parametres of "integration"? If there were, say, 1.000.000 Spaniards moving to Germany, when would they be considered integrated? Would there be a need for them to "integrate" inthe first place? If not, why it's not the same for the Turks?

The difference is that this wouldn't happen.
Generally I think someone is integrated when under his friends he can list a good number of locals.

OTOH what would you say when e.g. germans discover some nice places in turkey and all buy houses there that they occupy only 2 months during the summer?
Like they did in Mallorca.

A vast majority came from villages from central-eastern Anatolia in the 1960s, a time when many villages didn't even have electricity and cars were a curiosity for many. They were particularly selected to be as little qualified as possible, since such jobs were the most in demand in the "Wirtschaftswunder" era of Germany. They reacted by clamming up, and were not helped by the Germans to feel at home, treated as "guests" who were supposed to leave when the show's over, so they had even less incentives to even learn the language.

Well, I don't care if someone is given incentives or not, if you don't speak the language, you can't communicate and you will always be the idiot-worker in the eyes of others. You get no respect if you cannot talk properly.

As a result, yes they did not "establish a postive image". But the inttelligent, intellectual and progressive-minded European Public did not care to realise Turkey itself changed tremendously since the 1960s. I guess the European image of Turkey is still an extrapolation from the first generation Turks in Europe (enter here "you can marry 4 women in your country?" "you don't look Turkish to me!" etc etc).

European parochialism:
European self-righteousness:

In the 1960's nobody was even aware of turkey. How should we notice that you've changed when we don't know how you've been.

The general public is really unaware of turkey or its history. In my history lessons the last time I heard something about turkey was up to the point when turks besieged vienna. From that time until now I have a black hole. I didn't even learn about the quarrels between greece and turkey. I only found out later that turkey had occupied greece at some point in history.

My neighbor had been in turkey on holidays in some less touristic place and he had only good words left for the locals there. But he doesn't like those that are living here.

I knew a turk once who was really funny and such. He led a small user platform for better broadband connectivity, that I joined and supported with some money. I didn't even notice that he was turkish until he sent me a picture of him. Perfect german and such and quite smart. He also sent me two great songs by Ibrahim Tatlises!

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by germanos


Not that Croatia has (at the moment) any demands to make

When is Croatia due to become a member?

We got a date day after Turkey. April 2005. the negotiations begin, government claims it can finish them in two years. Membership predicted for 2009. or so.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Atahualpa


And what are the reasons? Why would they want to be a full member of the european union?

For the same reason 80% or so Croatians want it. It's an opportunity to live a better life.

My apartment is leaking when it rains...



And my camel is breaking down too often...




Still, I love my desert sand!

All I want is a waterproof tent and a three-hump camel with aluminium camelshoes . Chicks would dig it!



For those who need it be explained slowly - most people don't want to leave their country.

Me for example, I think I do. I want to go to Finland. I think I'd fit right in

Me

Finland

Me in Finland

[VetLegion]

In my history lessons the last time I heard something about turkey was up to the point when turks besieged vienna. From that time until now I have a black hole. I didn't even learn about the quarrels between greece and turkey.

Well that's bloody great!

For centuries we bleed as Austrian military border, and we don't even get a mention in their history books!

Bloody great I say - not!

[Spiffor]

VetLegion:
more seriously, I imagine that most EU-enthusiasts in aspiring countries (and recently-entered countries) do see the EU as a force for economic prosperity at home. And part of that does come from a wealth transfer from the richer countries of the EU to the poorer ones.

The EU can also be seen as a force of social / political progress, but I guess the supporters of this thesis vary from country to country. I suppose many Turks are strongly influenced by this expectation, while many Poles (for instance) would see EU-led political changes as "meddling in their business".

[VetLegion]

Spiffor, I absolutely agree about EU being seen as a force that can bring economic prosperity. I am just ridiculing the fears that we from Croatia are going to mass immigrate into EU once we are let in

I agree that there is more reason to fear this with Turkey, since it is still in a demographic boom.


About the EU bringing economic progress, I've just learned an interesting fact.

At the time of joining EU, Greece was at 74% of EU average GDP/capita. Nowadays, it is at a little less , or about so.

This is despite the fact that EU had been throwing at least 5 billion dollars annualy in Greek direction for quite some years (5% of Greek GDP - I think the amount is unpreceded.)

The morale of this story (I can find the link if necessary) is that while EU does in most cases significantly help economic growth - it is not necessarily so

[germanos]

Originally posted by VetLegion

We got a date day after Turkey. April 2005. the negotiations begin, government claims it can finish them in two years. Membership predicted for 2009. or so.

Will the prospect of Turkey joining as well make the Croats less eager for joining the EU?

[Pekka]

VetLegion, well come on over

I think the answer to that one is easy (Greek culture vs. Turkish culture vs. Finnish culture).. Greeks and Turks must be very much closer to each other than to us. Ours is VERY different from the southern european countries. They will come and say they have much differencies with each other, which might be true, but not so much as we have with each other. I guess you could just divide culture into the more northern ones, the center european ones and the southern ones. Well I mean you can't do that like that, but some regions could be outlined to have more similar with each other than with others. Maybe it has something to do with the weather, I don't know. But to me southern cultures seem to be more parallel than up here in the north.

Is it a good thing, sure, I'd be bored if everyone was like us. It's not necessarily a good thing if everyone was like us, it might be a bad thing. We're quite boring, but it suits us. It suits us but it doesn't suit the rest so it's only a good thing. But European cultures per se aren't SO far from each other, I mean comparing to say many Asian or African etc.. they're so different from ours.. even the culture in the more muslim countries, they must be way different. However, I'd still say Greeks and Turks look a lot more alike than we and Greeks do. But then again, Turkey is more advanced nation than other muslim countries like say Iran. In terms of society that is. And in other aspects too, Turkey is pretty advanced... that's why I see it more western than anything these days, and they're closing up on us every day more and more. Soon they'll be fully western if they so choose to be.