Turkey got a date from the EU!

[Dracon II]

That is the problem... there hasn't been a united christendom since the 1500's... and since then Europe has defined itself by many different things, race, politics, economics, civilization etc... nothing really cuts it anymore because European political-economic culture has been essentially assimilated into the world system. And geographically speaking it is difficult too... you would have to draw an arbitary line through Russia (or perhaps the historical limits of Muscovy provide a guideline).
Turkey I guess does have a right.... it's ancient cities were some of the original breeding grounds of Christian thought... and going back further it has been Greek and Roman. In the medieval period it still played a major part in European affairs, albeit as an outsider (though there have been situations where it has worked with European powers, like with France against the Habsburgs or with Germany against the entente cordiale). Perhaps my previous comments were a bit too hasty.

[Dracon II]

Membership has to be geographically, and not culturally determined... otherwise why shouldn't Australia and New Zealand, or even the USA be members? We have far more in common culturally with Europe than Turkey does. But in geographical terms Turkey has a stronger claim (obviously).

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well there is still the fantasy goal of the EU being a superstate (a weak one, at least). In order for anything like that to happen, there should be a contiguous geographic area controled by the supranational body.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Two explanations for France's opposition, one nobler than the other:

1) Turkey's sheer size gives France pause. In the EU, the prosperous countries are big, and the poor countries that have been admitted over teh years (Greece, Ireland, Portugal) are all relatively small. Thus, admitting new countries has always had a whiff of noblesse oblige about it. Turkey, however, is not some piddling little country; its up there with France and Germany in its population, and might just be uppity enough to point that out. I thing teh French find that intimidating and irritating.

2) France, more than any other country in the EU (including the UK), has set itself up as the guardian of "European ideals" -- roughly speaking, Enlightenment democratic thought. That's a good thing; anybody who wants to champion the Enlightenment is tops in my book. And the problem is, Turkey really isn't on board, yet, with the whole Enlightenment thing -- they really don't get democracy, or human rights, or the rule of law. France knows this, and is very rightly suspicious.

Good enough a summary.

If you look at the history of the Turkish republic, the primary idea of its founders was to modernise the country not only economically and also politically and socially too. Modernisation in fact, was seen as a comprehensive social project, ultimately aiming to change the world perspective of the whole society. In so far as Enlightenment can be considered as part of social and political modernisation, Turkey for the past 80 years has been trying to make ideas/ideals of Enlightenment applicable, with ups and downs and varying degrees of success.

From that perspective, membership in the EU is the next and logical step for Turkey, one that has increased the pace of reform and one that would give external support to the idea that values of Enlightenment and modernity are universally applicable.

Hence the vivid support of the army (the praetors of the "ideals of the republic") for EU membership. That's also why there's almost no discussion in Turkey about whether the EU membership is good for Turkish economy, or whether surrendering so much power to Brussels is a good idea.

So why are my guys dancing above. Because I think Turkey would be open to the Enlightenment, if someone would just impose it upon them. The EU will, and Turks will be happier for it.

In short: those who think Turkey will change the EU are likely to be wrong; those who think the EU will change Turkey are likely to be right. Everybody dance!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Turkey

(I'm 1/4th Turkish )

[Ted Striker]

A potpourri of Turkish PWNAGE:


Stand by we are experiencing technical difficulties.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Try again Ted... I get non-pictures.

[Ted Striker]

Damn Tripod!!!!!

I'll come up with a workaround.

I'd like to get a date with:

[Ted Striker]

Askin

[Ted Striker]

Çagla

[Ted Striker]

Deniz

[Ted Striker]

Zeynep

[Ted Striker]

Gülin

[Ted Striker]

After presenting the evidence, the only conclusion one could make is that Turkish women PWN.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Good man,