Turkey got a date from the EU!

[BeBMan]

Well AFAIK kronic isn't against Turkey due to xenophobic reasons...there are political arguments against a larger EU too - although I personally think they do not hold in the end.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VetLegion
For one thing, I know I'd hate getoisation (when people of same nationality group to live in the same part of the city)


Back to the question, isn't France better at assimilating immigrants than Germany. Can Germany see why and learn a thing or two?

France has a completely different tradition. France has tried to assimilate immigrants in the French culture (decided from Paris) just like it tried to assimilate sub-French cultural and ethnical groups.
And despite past successes, we are currently facing a great problem about it currently.

But no matter our ability to assimilate immigrants, the French population is probably the most hostile in the EU toward the entry of Turkey. According to polls, 67% of the French would vote "no" if they were asked about Turkey's entry. And we don't even have many Turks here, and they have no reputation of stirring trouble.

[VetLegion]

Ancyrean, are Turks aware that the perception of them in Europe is quite bad?


I see a need for a massive propaganda undertaking by the Turks. Massive. Turkey should buy TV time for ads, sponsor soap operas, drop propaganda leaflets in the European countryside and so on.

But most of all, It should make it a goal that every European visits Turkey al least once. At the head of this effort should be chosen Europeans of high standing and great influence, such as myself, whom Turkish government would invite on a promotional tour of best resorts, loveliest landscapes and other landmarks (costs payed by them of course ), from which we would return full of positive impressions!

Yeah, I can totally see it!!

(Sadly, Azra Akyn lives in the Netherlands so she couldn't be my guide... )

[alva]

According to polls, 67% of the French would vote "no"

You'd get about the same number here.

You don't like Turks in Germany, do you?

Spoken like a true European.

[Ted Striker]

Turkey, I'd hit it.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Spiffor

They'll need it; Their GNP/inhab is lower than our poorest Member-States', their military has still a very important political might, their judicial system leaves much to be desired, their treatment of minorities (Kurds) is horrendous by EU standards.

The military by now has largely removed itself from the political scene, with some relief I guess because people's perception of Turkish army's involvement in politics were often in terms of Latin American dictatorship patterns, whereas the case has been much more different.

Judicial sytem is experiencing a massive overhaul, as thousands of laws and regulations are already changed and judges are scrambling to absorb the new stuff, so it's coming along.

On treatment of Kurds, the situation in the past was bad enough but I have to disagree with your description of it now as 'horrendous by EU standards'. If it were so, we would not be able to start any negotiations at all. Actually, what Turkey have done in terms of minorities as well as military involvement and judiciary so far has been deemed satisfactory by the EU Commission itself.

But Turkey has shown its willingness to adhere to the EU's economic and political principles. And they have made leaps and bounds about it, and hopefully they'll continue to do so. It needs mucho time however, for the huge gap to be really filled.

I agree with this, with a silent footnote that the pace of change in Turkey is usually (much) faster than others give it credit for.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

This is great news!

[Dracon II]

So Europe doesn't see itself as a geographical area?

As far as I knew the only part of Turkey in Europe was the peninsula on the west side of istanbul.... but maybe Asia minor counts as Europe now...

How far are you going to go? Russia? Israel? Azerbaijan? What is Europe anyway?

I mean sure... Turkey is in NATO, they play football and they did own a substantial part of Europe for several centuries... but are they really European? What does "European" mean anymore?

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by MarkG

EU leaders warned Turkey that it would have to take steps to recognise Cyprus before the talks started.

seems like turkey has to recognize cyprus which until yesterday they said they would never do....

The wording of the final declaration is still being intensely discussed, and will be discussed right up to and during the EU summit this evening, the draft for the declaration has been changed dramatically at least 3 times so far.

If I can open a bracket here, The basis of EU-Turkey relations are governed by the Ankara Agreement of 1963 and each time the EEC/EU enlarged, a protocol was signed by Turkey to adapt the AA to include the newcomers. The reason I mention this is that in the draft declaration as it stands now, there's no explicit demand for recognition of Cyprus, but a phrase about the need to sign a protocol to include all the new 10 members into the Ankara Agreement.

Therefore, "Cyprus" will be de facto but not formally recognized. Actually, what I've been reading from the Turkish press indicates that the government will sign that protocol, simultaneously making a declaration that this does not amount to a formal recognition.

Again if I get it right from what I've been reading so far, Turkey will delay any formal recognition until there's a unified Cyprus (supposedly to come about in the final stages of Turkish entry) and then recognize that new Cyprus.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Spiffor
But no matter our ability to assimilate immigrants, the French population is probably the most hostile in the EU toward the entry of Turkey. According to polls, 67% of the French would vote "no" if they were asked about Turkey's entry. And we don't even have many Turks here, and they have no reputation of stirring trouble.

Actually, that's a source of great puzzlement in Turkey, people are asking "what the hell's wrong with them??" and even the francophile Turks have been having a hard time in coming up with an explanation.

One explanation is that France just woke up to the fact that the EU no longer is its pet project, that as an institution it's not an extension of French interests anymore and that France is no longer the determining political center of the EU. This has been so for some time now already, but Turkey's prospective membership stuck it in their face and they are giving a gut reaction for it....

I'm sure this explanation might have some weak points, but the gist of it must be true to some extent, or else just what exactly is the problem?

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Ancyrean, are Turks aware that the perception of them in Europe is quite bad?

You can bet they are. Europe's misperceptions about Turkey is indeed a source of exasparation in Turkey and many people are becoming cynical about Europe and what it stands for, although it's not at a critical level yet.

I see a need for a massive propaganda undertaking by the Turks. Massive. Turkey should buy TV time for ads, sponsor soap operas, drop propaganda leaflets in the European countryside and so on.

Well, I guess they have some kind of a comprehensive plan to improve Turkey's image. At any rate, I can see a very sizeable effort in the future if it comes to, say, a French referendum, probably involving a flanking maneaouvre through drawing the attention of the Muslim world to the issue. I don't know if it would work, but the "no" camp will definitely have a hard time.

(Sadly, Azra Akyn lives in the Netherlands so she couldn't be my guide... )

She often comes to Turkey though, so actually I think something could be arranged.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Two explanations for France's opposition, one nobler than the other:

1) Turkey's sheer size gives France pause. In the EU, the prosperous countries are big, and the poor countries that have been admitted over teh years (Greece, Ireland, Portugal) are all relatively small. Thus, admitting new countries has always had a whiff of noblesse oblige about it. Turkey, however, is not some piddling little country; its up there with France and Germany in its population, and might just be uppity enough to point that out. I thing teh French find that intimidating and irritating.

2) France, more than any other country in the EU (including the UK), has set itself up as the guardian of "European ideals" -- roughly speaking, Enlightenment democratic thought. That's a good thing; anybody who wants to champion the Enlightenment is tops in my book. And the problem is, Turkey really isn't on board, yet, with the whole Enlightenment thing -- they really don't get democracy, or human rights, or the rule of law. France knows this, and is very rightly suspicious.

So why are my guys dancing above. Because I think Turkey would be open to the Enlightenment, if someone would just impose it upon them. The EU will, and Turks will be happier for it.

In short: those who think Turkey will change the EU are likely to be wrong; those who think the EU will change Turkey are likely to be right. Everybody dance!

[:) Smiley]

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Dracon II
So Europe doesn't see itself as a geographical area?

As far as I knew the only part of Turkey in Europe was the peninsula on the west side of istanbul.... but maybe Asia minor counts as Europe now...

How far are you going to go? Russia? Israel? Azerbaijan? What is Europe anyway?

I mean sure... Turkey is in NATO, they play football and they did own a substantial part of Europe for several centuries... but are they really European? What does "European" mean anymore?

Russia, I don't think so, neither the Russians nor the Europeans would push for it, at least in the foreseeable future, in addition to the habitual repulsion on the part of Russia for EU-level democracy.

Israel, I don't think so, because although you can rightly argue about the contribution of Jews to Europe, Israel is too detached from European political and institutional structures, that is of course, if you assume the Palesitinian issue is solved anytime soon.

Azerbaijan, well if you consider the Caucasus as part of geographical Europe, and argue that geography must be the most defining criterion of EU membership, that would actually qualify Azerbaijan for EU alongside Armenia and Georgia, although these three are varying degrees of light years away from where even Turkey stands in terms of compatibility with Europe.

As for your critical question on what does "European" mean, well that's what people are scrambling to answer now. Some resort to a cultural definiton invoking a Christian heritage, which in turn totally contradicts with the idea of EU, insofar as it's been hitherto proclaimed.

[Shi Huangdi]

I'd be concerned here if I were Europe, this could be paving the way for massive immigration from Turkey to Europe, which would be challenging for Europe given their already present demographic problems...