Exegesis - Cap/Com-ist

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I agree that capital is accumulated labor. The question is who's labor.

Why should it matter??

But lets say its all mine . .. every bit was the sweat of my own brow labor-- I worked 60 hour weeks when everyone else worked 40 hours and I did that for 20 years ( so have accumulated 10 more person\years of labor value than anyone else)

I use that 10 years of labor value to buy a tractor-- So there it sits with 10 years of labor as its value. I want to retire so I rent it out to people at a rate that after expenses, nets me around the same income as my 60 hours of work used to and the tractor has a useful life of 10 years. Who again am I exploiting ( Remember that anyone that uses my tractor nets a much higher income than those that do not)

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
Why should it matter??

As you say, the capital produces value. So if it's your labor, you want that value.

But lets say its all mine . .. every bit was the sweat of my own brow labor-- I worked 60 hour weeks when everyone else worked 40 hours and I did that for 20 years ( so have accumulated 10 more person\years of labor value than anyone else)

I use that 10 years of labor value to buy a tractor-- So there it sits with 10 years of labor as its value. I want to retire so I rent it out to people at a rate that after expenses, nets me around the same income as my 60 hours of work used to and the tractor has a useful life of 10 years. Who again am I exploiting ( Remember that anyone that uses my tractor nets a much higher income than those that do not)

Because the system allows you an 'incentive' for renting that tractor. Your ability to collect rent depends on the system.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Why should I have to be a capitalist? Why do I have to pay not to be?

HUH???

You don't and you don't.

Be what you want as long as you comply with the laws of the society in which you live . .. and if you don't like them, why not leave??

How do you pay to not be a capitalist?? I'm not a capitalist in the sense that I don't own any means of production and I don't pay for that .....

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Why should I have to be a capitalist? Why do I have to pay not to be?

You don't have to be. But what do you want to do?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


HUH???

You don't and you don't.

Be what you want as long as you comply with the laws of the society in which you live . .. and if you don't like them, why not leave??

How do you pay to not be a capitalist?? I'm not a capitalist in the sense that I don't own any means of production and I don't pay for that .....

I have to pay an 'incentive' for you to be a capitalist. If I don't want to pay that 'incentive' I have to become a capitalist. I don't want to be a capitalist though. I find it immoral.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

As you say, the capital produces value. So if it's your labor, you want that value.


Because the system allows you an 'incentive' for renting that tractor. Your ability to collect rent depends on the system.

What "incentive"?? I sweated my ass of to get it and I am taking the risk that no one will want to use it etc.

My ability to collect rent depends on the common sense idea that if I "own" something, someone else has to pay to use it or ownership becomes valueless. In other words you have assigned a value of ZERO to the 10 years of hard labor that went into the purchase.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


He won't. That's why the 'incentive' must be paid. We don't have a choice in capitalism. We must pay the 'incentive'

And what's the incentive in communism?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I have to pay an 'incentive' for you to be a capitalist. If I don't want to pay that 'incentive' I have to become a capitalist. I don't want to be a capitalist though. I find it immoral.

What incentive?? Are you talking rent?? if you don't want to rent my tractor then don't. Its easy . . . Nobody forcing you . .. Just don't complain when everyone that does is making more money than you.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


And what's the incentive in communism?

There is no 'incentive.' That is there is no compensation beyond your labor.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber



What incentive?? Are you talking rent?? if you don't want to rent my tractor then don't. Its easy . . . Nobody forcing you . .. Just don't complain when everyone that does is making more money than you.

We're going in circles. Don't you agree that the 'incentive' must be paid in the capitalist system? Or don't you?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
"Shelter" is not a product, but you are right that land is capable of being productive if farmed, and hence Marx does categorize it as "capital". As I said, I think this is part of Marx's failing.

1) Shelter is a service, and services are basically products. Otherwise computers aren't means of production, when they clearly are.

2) I don't see how classifying farms as capital could possibly be considered his failing.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


We're going in circles. Don't you agree that the 'incentive' must be paid in the capitalist system? Or don't you?

I'm not sure how you are using the term and can't be bothered to reread 800 posts to find where it was discussed before and how you are choosing to mangle this word.

In general , I don't see that the capitalist system MUST pay incentives to anybody, but persons are free to offer incentives if they wish.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


I'm not sure how you are using the term and can't be bothered to reread 800 posts to find where it was discussed before and how you are choosing to mangle this word.

In general , I don't see that the capitalist system MUST pay incentives to anybody, but persons are free to offer incentives if they wish.

Capitalists are compensated for their labor, and a risk premium. Arrian and I have agreed that they are paid a premium above that. He calls it incentive. Do you think that we must pay this 'incentive' for capitalism to work?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


There is no 'incentive.' That is there is no compensation beyond your labor.

Then what's the motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum? For that matter, what's the motivation to even do the bare minimum, since presumably you wouldn't be left to starve on the street if you were unemployed?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


Then what's the motivation to do anything beyond the bare minimum? For that matter, what's the motivation to even do the bare minimum, since presumably you wouldn't be left to starve on the street if you were unemployed?

In capitalism the worker has a disinsentive to work, because he has to pay for the incentive for the capitalist. In communism there is no disinsentive to work.