Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Arrian]

Exactly. Unenforceable and/or easy to manipulate (by those with money & power, anyway!).

It seems to me that this is a cultural issue. Culture isn't something that is easily changed.

Anyway, I'm outta here. Talk to ya later,

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious

If the corporations create the social cost they need to pay for it. Where's your devotion to personal responsibility? You don't include corporations in that world view?

a) The bulk of pollution comes from consumers.
b) Corps are in fact held responsible and to higher standards than individuals
c) There is documented evidence adnauseum of personal responsibility and personal liability assumed within the context of corps and environmental responsibility.
d) Corps do in fact have legal obligations that they are held to and moreso...
e) Arrians point is on the money, changing landscape of legal requirements not to pollute have in turn poisoned the climate to do business in the US.

Which leads to the inevitbale punishing those so called non-responsible corps does what.... It causes that ohhh sooo desirous situation you decry. Outsourcing.

The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
Wow-- so we could watch the two major parties taking even more frequent trips to the courthouse than we do now

Also would reasonable belief be a defense?? Politicians could then be "accidentally" misinformed so they could then continue the same types of statements with impunity.

I'm an ideas man. Don't bother me with details.

[Japher]

The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

From an economical stance, of course

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


a) The bulk of pollution comes from consumers.
b) Corps are in fact held responsible and to higher standards than individuals
c) There is documented evidence adnauseum of personal responsibility and personal liability assumed within the context of corps and environmental responsibility.
d) Corps do in fact have legal obligations that they are held to and moreso...
e) Arrians point is on the money, changing landscape of legal requirements not to pollute have in turn poisoned the climate to do business in the US.

Which leads to the inevitbale punishing those so called non-responsible corps does what.... It causes that ohhh sooo desirous situation you decry. Outsourcing.

The ONLY (from a global perspective) means to curtail pollution is to make it desirous to do so.

Ah. So you still want to pay a corporation for not doing something?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian


Oh, please.

As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

He was talking about consumerism. You think other societies have been more consumeristic? Maybe you should study harder.

[Arrian]

He was talking more generally than just that, Kid, but he was focusing on consumerism - a point which I granted him (though I added the caveat that though our society may be more shortsighted & greedy, it's not significantly moreso than many others - especially the example of Europe, which he brought up).

Che and I managed to have a reasonable discussion, by the way, without either one of us insinuating that the other was ignorant. Because neither of us is, and we each understand that it's entirely possible to be well-educated and yet have widely divergent world-views.

-Arrian

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Ah. So you still want to pay a corporation for not doing something?

NO that would imply I would be in favor of companies not producing anything as that would be the only way to 100% ensure they are "not doing something" either through direct consequence of their manufacturing process or use by their customer.

[Kuciwalker]

Re: Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

Vel, I think you're going to have headaches for the rest of your life from all of the you inflict on yourself.

(I'll probably be the same way )

[Kuciwalker]

Just a comment:

It's stupid to complain about pollution as a weakness of capitalism, because in no way are pollution regulations antithetical to capitalism or even laissez-faire capitalism. When you pollute, you are actually inflicting harm on others. Laws to reduce pollution are no more inconsistent with capitalism than laws against murder.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Arrian
Che and I managed to have a reasonable discussion, by the way, without either one of us insinuating that the other was ignorant. Because neither of us is, and we each understand that it's entirely possible to be well-educated and yet have widely divergent world-views.

-Arrian

I don't find you so civil.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


NO that would imply I would be in favor of companies not producing anything as that would be the only way to 100% ensure they are "not doing something" either through direct consequence of their manufacturing process or use by their customer.

If you want to pay companies for not poluting then cutting back polution will result in you paying them, since their polution will be lower.

[Kuciwalker]

Or you could simply send the polluters to jail.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Just a comment:

It's stupid to complain about pollution as a weakness of capitalism, because in no way are pollution regulations antithetical to capitalism or even laissez-faire capitalism. When you pollute, you are actually inflicting harm on others. Laws to reduce pollution are no more inconsistent with capitalism than laws against murder.

Except there is a question as to whether you can have laws to reduce polution to an acceptable level with capitalism. Anti polution laws hurt profit and jobs. Capitalims depends on both.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Or you could simply send the polluters to jail.

That already happens in the industry side of things but almost never on the consumer side of the equation.