Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Lawrence of Arabia]

The Hopi Indians did not. Many American Indian tribes did not.

small sample size, everyone knew everyone else, and all pulled together because no one were strangers, just like today's kibbutz.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Actually incentirves work great despite your little tongue in cheek comments.

Sure they do, but I don't like the idea of paying corporations for not doing something that is harmfull to society. The whole idea is to match to costs. If the corporations create the social cost they need to pay for it. Where's your devotion to personal responsibility? You don't include corporations in that world view?

[Arrian]

[RANT]

A major problem with the way we handle pollution in this country is that we deal with the effects decades down the road, instead of enforcing strict controls on current operations.

Result? Cleanup required. Cleanups are hideously expensive, and there are other complications. Often, the original polluting entity is gone. Insurance records (to the extent those are applicable, but that's a whole 'nother matter) are often incomplete or totally missing.

Before you even clean a contaminated site up, you have to delineate the extent of the contamination. Once you've done that (Preliminary Investigation), you do a Remedial Investigation (more in-depth) and then a Feasibility Study (ok, here are 2-3 methods we can use to clean this up, and here's what it should cost). Then you debate/haggle over which method to use. THEN, once you've dealt with all of that, you get started.

I cannot tell you how many sites I've seen where the contamination was discovered and pretty well understood 15 years ago, and they still haven't started cleanup!

It's bassackwards, damnit! Controls + incentives. Go after pollution at its source (aggressively!), not after the fact.[/Rant]

-Arrian

[Kidlicious]

Here in California the cotton growers are actually subsidized to polute. Now that's just wrong, especially with the bad air we have here.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
small sample size, everyone knew everyone else, and all pulled together because no one were strangers, just like today's kibbutz.

There were tens of millions of Indians. Obviously, I don't say all Indians behaved this way, since the Aztecs are an obvious and major exception.

Also, given that most feudal states were organized around sustainability, and not short-term greed (despite the ambitions of various individuals), humans can not be called naturally short-sighted and greedy. We are whatever it is advanatageous to be.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

There were tens of millions of Indians. Obviously, I don't say all Indians behaved this way, since the Aztecs are an obvious and major exception.

i was talking about your Hopi.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
i was talking about your Hopi.

And as I wrote in the immediately following setnence, MANY Indians did not act in greedy and short-sighted ways. You even quoted it.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

And as I wrote in the immediately following setnence, MANY Indians did not act in greedy and short-sighted ways. You even quoted it.

and you will see that many of your many were organized into small tribes were everyone knew everyone. you cannt compare a society like that to todays were over 95% of the people you see daily are strangers.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
and you will see that many of your many were organized into small tribes were everyone knew everyone.

They also had to account for neighboring bands, composed of people whom they did not know. You are also ignoring the feudal social structure, which accounts for a significant part of human history. The point is, people are created by their society. A short-sighted, greedy society will create short-sighted, greedy people. That's not how we are naturally.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

im not talking about feudal social structure. im talking about the hopi. the neighboring bands as you all them, were like seperate nations for us today, therefore i dont see how it affects their society where everyone knew everyone else, as opposed to todays.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia
im not talking about feudal social structure. im talking about the hopi. the neighboring bands as you all them, were like seperate nations for us today, therefore i dont see how it affects their society where everyone knew everyone else, as opposed to todays.

Not everyone in Hopi society knew everyone else. Not everyone in societies of traveling bands knew everyone else. Not all North American Indians lived in traveling bands. The Chippewa were a huge nation who always left half their rice fall back into the water as a tribute to the rice, which also, they knew, ensured that there would be more rice next year.

And, as I have repeated pointed out, today's society is manufactured. We don't know each other because we don't bother to get to know each other. We are overworked, so we don't have time to build community. We are distracted by consumerism. Hell, families barely know each other, let alone neighbors, or the guy who lives on another block. This isn't just because we have a large society. Europeans have large societies too, and they aren't as short-sighted and greedy as Americans. We are this way because we have been taught to be this way because it is more profitable to be this way.

Since I can point to significant parts of human history and society where people have not been short-sighted and greedy, it is not a universal charaterisitic of humanity, and therefore it is not part of human nature.

Game, set, match.

[Arrian]

We are distracted by consumerism. Hell, families barely know each other, let alone neighbors, or the guy who lives on another block. This isn't just because we have a large society. Europeans have large societies too, and they aren't as short-sighted and greedy as Americans.

Oh, please.

As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

Your comments re: "harmonious with nature" Indian societies don't carry much weight with me, primarily because those societies ultimately failed, but also because I honestly don't think we know enough about them (not much history available for review) to state with certainty that they were really any less short-sighted than we. Greed I'll grant you.

-Arrian

[Az]

I am still not getting that sillyass " it's human nature " argument. Not everything that is "human nature", or that is known as such is necessarily good, acceptable, or inconquerable. As to our society, our biggest problem is that we barely have one, on a personal level.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Arrian
Oh, please.

As a student of History, it is pretty clear that humans have always been shortsighted, greedy little buggers. I *might* grant you that our society is marginally worse than others, but only marginally.

Yes and no. There have always been short-signted greedy people. Everyone has not always been short-sighted and greedy.

Your comments re: "harmonious with nature" Indian societies don't carry much weight with me, primarily because those societies ultimately failed,

They ultimately failed when they were invaded by another culture. "Harmonious waht nature" is not what I'm getting at. They obviously impacted nature greatly. The point was they planned for the future.

[Arrian]

I'll tell you this...

If I had more free time, I would most likely spend it on the things I like to do - and most of those things are anti-social (reading, playing computer games) or apply only to small groupings of friends*.

Does this make me broken, from a commie perspective?

-Arrian

* - some of this may change if/when I have kids, because that tends to get people more involved socially