Ukraine

[Serb]

Originally posted by Odin


Welcome to the Serboverse.

Yeah welcome.
No marijuana addicted hippies allowed.
So get out.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb


What irregularities are you talking about? Give me exact example of such irregularities. How exactly Yanukovich could cheat?

And then when someone DOES give examples, you'll simply say "sounds like BS' and go on a not particulalry comprehensible rant about the US 2000 election.

I am interested in seeing exactly what the opposition is claiming, and if it has merit, but Serb is not exactly adding credibility to his side.

[lord of the mark]

"Observers with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said there were extensive indications of vote fraud, including people apparently voting multiple times and voters being forced to turn over absentee ballots to state employers. "

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


And then when someone DOES give examples, you'll simply say "sounds like BS'

WHAT EXAMPLES?

and go on a not particulalry comprehensible rant about the US 2000 election.

As far as I remember the outcome of 2000 US election was decided by court. Am I right? If so why the hell Ukranian elections should be different? WHY? Why the candidate who get support of minirity should become new president? Why if you have lost in Ukraine, it's enough to make claim that elections were flawed and become the new president and at the same time it is not enough in US. In US you should prove it in court first.

I am interested in seeing exactly what the opposition is claiming, and if it has merit, but Serb is not exactly adding credibility to his side.

The opposition is claming that Yushenko won the election. They've started celebrations fifty minutes after voting stations has been closed. They do not want to go in court to prove their point with evidences, they want to f*ck the will of majority of Ukranian voters and grab the power in non-constitutional way. As I've said earlier they are playing the same game as Georgians played year ago. But I bet this time they will gain nothing. There is no way eastern and southern Ukrain will give up easily.
The worse scenario is a civil war and split of the country, which will be a really bad move for the western Ukraine, since eastern Ukraine contribute to the bulk of Ukranian GNP. That's were their industry located.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"Observers with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said there were extensive indications of vote fraud, including people apparently voting multiple times and voters being forced to turn over absentee ballots to state employers. "

As I've said it's a matter of investigation in court. They should bring their evidences into Constitutional Court of Ukraine. Yanukovich can do the same, since he has evidences that Yushenko cheated.

and voters being forced to turn over absentee ballots to state employers. "

Considering that most of you guys believe that Russia is a dictatorship, and probably consider that Ukraine is more democratic country, I should say that from my own experience of Russian voter, this statement sounds as absolute, unthinkable, unimaginable, and ridiculous bullsh!t charge ever.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb
WHAT EXAMPLES?

LOTM - See your post above, where someone gave some examples, and you said "BS"

As far as I remember the outcome of 2000 US election was decided by court. Am I right? If so why the hell Ukranian elections should be different?

LOTM - I rather doubt anyone in Ukraine is concerned about being consistent with what happens in the US. I assume the lack of trust in the courts may be in issue. The Supreme Court of the United States has a history going back over 200 years. Ukraine has had an independent judiciary for 13 years at the most, and i suppose its independence for those 13 years may be at issue.



WHY? Why the candidate who get support of minirity should become new president?
Why if you have lost in Ukraine, it's enough to make claim that elections were flawed and become the new president and at the same time it is not enough in US. In US you should prove it in court first.

LOTM - like I said, I dont expect people in Ukraine hold up US precedent as a ruling example. You will have to ask THEM. I might add, that the situations are hardly parallel. In the US in 2000 the US govt didnt control large parts of the media, as seems to be the case here. I really think the entire political situation is different.


The opposition is claming that Yushenko won the election. They've started celebrations fifty minutes after voting stations has been closed. They do not want to go in court to prove their point with evidences, they want to f*ck the will of majority of Ukranian voters and grab the power in non-constitutional way. As I've said earlier they are playing the same game as Georgians played year ago.

LOTM - The overthrow of a corrupt regime, which used fraudulent elections to maintain power?

But I bet this time they will gain nothing. There is no way eastern and southern Ukrain will give up easily.
The worse scenario is a civil war and split of the country, which will be a really bad move for the western Ukraine, since eastern Ukraine contribute to the bulk of Ukranian GNP. That's were their industry located.

Old and decrepit industry, IIUC. In any case a Western Ukraine in the EU is probably better off than one in a united Ukraine inside a revived USSR, which is probably what the the Western Ukrainians fear.

[Nubclear]

While (Sorry Serb) I don't condone Russian election fraud in the Ukraine, I think its a bit much for AMERICANS to be lecturing the rest of the world on its elections

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb



Considering that most of you guys believe that Russia is a dictatorship, and probably consider that Ukraine is more democratic country, I should say that from my own experience of Russian voter, this statement sounds as absolute, unthinkable, unimaginable, and ridiculous bullsh!t charge ever.

I have never heard that the Russian govt engages in vote fraud of this kind, merely that Putin has steadily moved to control television, and uses the instruments of the state against billionaires who support the opposition. Not the same thing at all. Im not sure if that qualifies as a dictatorship or not. Theres clearly a grey area.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
While (Sorry Serb) I don't condone Russian election fraud in the Ukraine, I think its a bit much for AMERICANS to be lecturing the rest of the world on its elections

Im not lecturing anyone - it seems to me its Serb who is lecturing those people in the Ukraine who are protesting. Im merely trying to learn the truth, and quibbling with some of Serbs illogic.

But i guess the fact that the US election of 2000 was basically a tie, and complications of recounting went to court, means that NO ONE anywhere in the world can EVER challenge a fraudulent election. At least if they are seen as pro-US (actually whats particularly ironic is that the Ukraine opposition wants to make the Ukraine closer to the EU, which is the bete noir of the Amerian right) Thats very convenient for the Lord God Putin.


Somehow the EU is now a tool of Yankee imperialism, to Serb. Of course if your political reviews follow pre-1986 Soviet lines, that would make sense.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Im not lecturing anyone - it seems to me its Serb who is lecturing those people in the Ukraine who are protesting. Im merely trying to learn the truth, and quibbling with some of Serbs illogic.

(Sorry Serb) Convincing a Russian nationalist to change his views is almost as bad as trying to convince an American to change his.
AKA: Its not going to happen

[laurentius]

Thats why both of them are doomed

[Nubclear]

The Russian nationalists will be sent off to Siberia, Russia will become a great multicultural democracy, and Canada will annex whats left of the US( New England, California).

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
LOTM - See your post above, where someone gave some examples, and you said "BS"

I can't find any exact example there.

LOTM - I rather doubt anyone in Ukraine is concerned about being consistent with what happens in the US. I assume the lack of trust in the courts may be in issue. The Supreme Court of the United States has a history going back over 200 years. Ukraine has had an independent judiciary for 13 years at the most, and i suppose its independence for those 13 years may be at issue.

Well, they have to start from somewhere, otherwise they will never learn how to solve their problems in a civilized manner. What a you agitating for? For power of the crowd? For lynching?

LOTM - like I said, I dont expect people in Ukraine hold up US precedent as a ruling example. You will have to ask THEM. I might add, that the situations are hardly parallel. In the US in 2000 the US govt didnt control large parts of the media, as seems to be the case here. I really think the entire political situation is different.

I don't think so. I believe that all problems SHOULD be solved in accordance with the constitution and law. Why you think that Ukranians shouldn't solve their problems like you do- in court? Why you think they aren't ready for such a luxury?

LOTM - The overthrow of a corrupt regime, which used fraudulent elections to maintain power?

I'm the last man who regrets about Shevarnadze's fate. If you ask me, I think this mofo deserves a firing squad. But still it was US sponsored coup. Now you are playing the same game in Ukraine.

Old and decrepit industry, IIUC.

Old or not, western Ukraine doesn't have even such industry. And eastern Ukraine contribute to the bulk of Ukranian GNP, basically they are feeding western Ukraine and there is no way in hell eastern Ukrainans will allow western candidate to become their president.

In any case a Western Ukraine in the EU is probably better off than one in a united Ukraine inside a revived USSR, which is probably what the the Western Ukrainians fear.

Ha ha ha
And you think Europe dreams about the day when western Ukraine will join EU. What the hell western Ukraine can offer to EU, except their crappy agricalture? They have no idea what to do with German and Polish farmers and their goods. Western Ukraine has nothing else. Major natural resources of Ukraine, their industry, their ports located in eastern Ukraine, that's why it contributes WAY more to their GNP than western Ukraine does, and that's why eastern Ukranians will not accept western candidate as new president, and will not accept their claims about flawed election.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
The Russian nationalists will be sent off to Siberia, Russia will become a great multicultural democracy, and Canada will annex whats left of the US( New England, California).

Tass,
I'm already in Siberia. I was born here. And it's a best place on Earth, I should add.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



Im not lecturing anyone - it seems to me its Serb who is lecturing those people in the Ukraine who are protesting. Im merely trying to learn the truth, and quibbling with some of Serbs illogic.

I'm not lecturing them. I say that they are bunch of pity, whining LOOSERS. Those suckers can't accept their defeat. That's all.

But i guess the fact that the US election of 2000 was basically a tie,

The Ukranian election of 2004 was a tie in the first round and was a victory of one candidate over another with minor lead of only 3% in the second round. So it's pretty close to a tie. So all complains should be brought into a court.

and complications of recounting went to court, means that NO ONE anywhere in the world can EVER challenge a fraudulent election. At least if they are seen as pro-US (actually whats particularly ironic is that the Ukraine opposition wants to make the Ukraine closer to the EU, which is the bete noir of the Amerian right) Thats very convenient for the Lord God Putin.

Look, is my English SO crappy?
Once again:
I'm saying that they should solve their problem in a civilized way, like you did in 2000. If opposition has evidences, they should bring them into court and defend their position there, in court, not on streets of Kiev. They should prove that election was flawed, PROVE IT IN COURT GODDAMNIT. Their currnet form of protest:
a) not civilized
b) violates Ukranian consitution
c) and thus is criminal

That's all.

Somehow the EU is now a tool of Yankee imperialism, to Serb. Of course if your political reviews follow pre-1986 Soviet lines, that would make sense.

Oh come on, Yushenko is your boy. US is his main sponsor, and I believe you want something in return from him for all that money you gave to him.