Rugby - Running Out of Titles

[Caligastia]

Sorry I left this one a bit late guys. I was busy celebrating my 30th birthday this weekend.

I see France managed to beat Australia rather convincingly. As I said, none of the matches are being shown on FSW so I'll have to read your comments to get an idea of how the match went.

[Caligastia]

Good on the Irish for their defeat of the Boks. What do you guys think about the controversy over that Irish try? I presume one of you saw the game.

[Havak]

I saw it. I can see both points of view as it happens - but then my views on Hoeniss have been expressed before.

I think ultimately it comes down to this - you should not turn your back on the opposition when they have a penalty on your 5M line.

And even with the ref wired for sound I did not hear the 'time off' comment the Bok skipper thought he had (admittedly he was closer - but Hoeniss denies saying it in any case).

Mind you if Hoeniss was bad you should have seen Scott Young the Aussie we got saddled with. Must have cost us 12 tries - oh no, sorry, that was the way we played that cost us that wasn't it?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
I saw it. I can see both points of view as it happens - but then my views on Hoeniss have been expressed before.

I think ultimately it comes down to this - you should not turn your back on the opposition when they have a penalty on your 5M line.

That's what I was thinking myself. As Hoeniss said, what kind of world-class team turns their backs on the opposition 5 metres from the try-line?

Mind you if Hoeniss was bad you should have seen Scott Young the Aussie we got saddled with. Must have cost us 12 tries - oh no, sorry, that was the way we played that cost us that wasn't it?

What did Scott Young do wrong?

[Havak]

He didn't use advantage in the way I would normally expect an Aussie to - and this hurt Canada as well as us (they kept having to scrum and were struggling somewhat in that area).

[finbar]

I would assume you can spot a Welsh accent so it sounds like you may have got a world service feed instead?

There wasn't a Welsh accent to be heard. Two commentators - one male, one female. Regardless of Leicester's standing as the leading club team in the entire Milky Way, I can't imagine there'd have been special commentary teams sent to the game. Is Radio Leicester part of the BBC chain?

But did you notice that was after Hodgson was subbed and Henry moved to stand off? In other words Tinders returned to a conventional 12 when Paul move to half back – Greenwood slotting in at outside centre.

Yes, I saw that, but I also thought Tindall seemed to fill in for Paul as a receiver prior to the change.

It’s a huge gamble to play Paul against the Boks – I’m not sure I am convinced.

Are there no other options in the centres? I just find it odd that they've waited this long to test out Paul at Test level. Or, in fact, to give him another chance. Anyway, I think the Bok centres will be licking their lips. And Stirling Mortlock, too.

I watched an analysis of his distribution by the Sky pundits and even in the nightmare games from June they showed some very good work from him (that I totally missed at the time). What bothers me more is I don’t think he is strong in the contact situation – and his defence is certainly shaky. Neither of those bode well against the Boks.

My recollection is that he looked all right when he had space and time. When he didn't, which was often, he was overpowered. And his defence was immensely suspect. He doesn't seem to be a tough nut.

Yes Tinders passing was very lazy wasn’t it? He had better sort that because we need to have perfectly timed passing to beat the next two opponents. I really don’t know how to call the next two games – we certainly could win both but I’m not confident we will do so.

Well, we'll see. Canada was an exhibition game. It was pressure and aggressive defence that sank England down here. Along with their own crap defence. And lack of inspiring leadership. The Boks are going to be stung by last week. It might have been better for England if Ireland had lost. The Wallabies were severely embarrassed in Paris, so they're going to bounce back, too. Hopefully. Interestingly, this morning, Eddie observed that our backline management failed in Paris, too. He's quite right. Too many wrong options were taken, apparently against orders. It's hard to know where the fault lay - Gregan or Larkham - but I suspect Gregan.

That said, France looked awesomely good. Even if M'sieur Michalak lacks a kicking game. Still, I'm sure Tamerlin will be happy to give him some tips.

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Originally posted by Havak
I saw it. I can see both points of view as it happens - but then my views on Hoeniss have been expressed before.

I think ultimately it comes down to this - you should not turn your back on the opposition when they have a penalty on your 5M line.

And even with the ref wired for sound I did not hear the 'time off' comment the Bok skipper thought he had (admittedly he was closer - but Hoeniss denies saying it in any case).

I think Hoeniss got it badly wrong. He blew the whistle for the penalty, then told Smits to talk to his players:

"South Africa were giving away penalties close to the line and I told John that if he didn't talk to the players, I would have to use other means to sort it out," he said.

"I expected him to remind the players of discipline, but never said I would give him a minute to talk to the players.

"The Irish guys came to me and said 'what now?' I told them 'time on' and play was continuing.

Hoeniss had blown the whistle to stop play: (1) to award the penalty; and (2) to talk to Smits. He can't restart play without blowing the whistle again. Tappe Henning quotes the relevant rule:

"The rule says: 'When he (the referee) stops play for a contravention under rule 1.26(3) ... he should blow the whistle a second time when he awards a penalty try (not applicable on Saturday), or a penalty'."

Hoeniss can't just say "time on, play is continuing". He had stopped play. O'Gara wasn't entitled to tap and go until the whistle was blown the second time. Hoennis forgot the basics. To suggest, as he did, that it's the Boks' fault for turning their backs on a team five metres from their line is not only disingenuous, it's trying to cover his own fundamental error.

[Havak]

Is Radio Leicester part of the BBC chain?

Part of the family yes – but never the less you did receive a secondary commentary team – Radio Leicester’s coverage was by Bleddyn Jones (Male) and Steve Johnson (Male). Aunty clearly putting our licence fee money to good use doubling up the teams.

Yes, I saw that, but I also thought Tindall seemed to fill in for Paul as a receiver prior to the change.

He probably did – he was considerably more mobile around the paddock?

Anyway, I think the Bok centres will be licking their lips. And Stirling Mortlock, too.

And so they should – he is by far the biggest obvious weakness. The other options – Abbott (injured), Smith (injured), Van Gisbergen (Kiwi until next summer), Noon and Stephenson (not good enough), Greenwood (in awful form). Lloyd (injured and not good enough), Hipkiss (talented but can’t get a club start ahead of foreigners)

Centre is a problem – too many top clubs have Foreigners filling those roles. Including Tigers of course.

And his defence was immensely suspect. He doesn't seem to be a tough nut.

I think that is fair enough. That’s why I want to see Ellis pair with him against the Wallabies – Ellis is one tough little scrummy and the clash between him and Gregan will be fascinating.

That said, France looked awesomely good. Even if M'sieur Michalak lacks a kicking game. Still, I'm sure Tamerlin will be happy to give him some tips.

At home I would make them the number one side in the world. Away from home they might be as much as five places lower than that. They remain an enigma – they should achieve so much more than they do. I think perhaps there is an issue with complacency when they win Slams up here – as they never convert that into series wins against SH sides – or even sequential wins. I’m sure the boys will have their own views…

So Eddie will presumably be looking for a compliant back line against the Scots? One has to love Scotland – one huge win over a Japan side that rested it’s Kiwi players and they suddenly talk about beating Australia. In their dreams perhaps – but nowhere else.

To suggest, as he did, that it's the Boks' fault for turning their backs on a team five metres from their line is not only disingenuous, it's trying to cover his own fundamental error.

So, accepting for the moment that he messed up to the letter of the law, would you say the Irish lads did absolutely nothing wrong either then? They obeyed a referee’s instruction after all?

And it is also a little disingenuous for the Bok coach to complain about the Irish killing ball and encroaching offside – his side were no better behaved in those areas.

And in all of this what excuses Watson and Henning for criticising a fellow referee? I would suggest again these comments will draw IRB attention on the Bok Union.

It would be Hoeniss of course – the ultimate ‘homer’ referee for the SH sides normally.

Oh and White has fully fallen off the ‘quiet and sensible’ wagon at last – check the BBC sport site for a long list of his whines and moans about how unfair the world is to Bok sides. His inner Clive is going public at last.

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Originally posted by Havak
And so they should – he is by far the biggest obvious weakness. The other options – Abbott (injured), Smith (injured), Van Gisbergen (Kiwi until next summer), Noon and Stephenson (not good enough), Greenwood (in awful form). Lloyd (injured and not good enough), Hipkiss (talented but can’t get a club start ahead of foreigners)

Cripes. Want to borrow a centre?

At home I would make them the number one side in the world. Away from home they might be as much as five places lower than that. They remain an enigma – they should achieve so much more than they do. I think perhaps there is an issue with complacency when they win Slams up here – as they never convert that into series wins against SH sides – or even sequential wins. I’m sure the boys will have their own views…

I understand that they can be, um, enigmatic. It's that damn esprit de clocher. Which, of course, isn't going to hurt them in the next World Cup, is it?

So Eddie will presumably be looking for a compliant back line against the Scots?

That, or he'll have to supply Clyde Rathbone with mittens, ear muffs and a parka. I think he had one and a half touches on Saturday night.

One has to love Scotland – one huge win over a Japan side that rested it’s Kiwi players and they suddenly talk about beating Australia. In their dreams perhaps – but nowhere else.

Well, they made us look average in the second half the other week. As did France on Saturday night. Is a pattern emerging?

So, accepting for the moment that he messed up to the letter of the law, would you say the Irish lads did absolutely nothing wrong either then? They obeyed a referee’s instruction after all?

I don't blame the Irish in the slightest. What were they supposed to do? Tell the ref to blow his whistle? Hoeniss stuffed up. He suffered brain fade. The Irish benefited. How many times have we all seen a ref call back a quick tap because it was taken before the whistle? You can't blow the whistle, stop the game to talk to the captain, then claim the game hasn't stopped. It's not just the letter of the law.

And it is also a little disingenuous for the Bok coach to complain about the Irish killing ball and encroaching offside – his side were no better behaved in those areas.

Utterly disingenuous. His team has specialised in that stuff. The Bok defence was offside significantly more often than they were onside throughout the Tri-Nations. Obviously coached that way. Jake White is, unfortunately, letting himself down. Pity. He was shaping to be better than that. I think he's now through his honeymoon period of (as it were) glory for resurrecting the team, and he's finding himself neck-deep in the hurly-burly and pressure of Test rugby. He might learn. He might not.

And in all of this what excuses Watson and Henning for criticising a fellow referee? I would suggest again these comments will draw IRB attention on the Bok Union.

Watson's and Henning's words are the truly interesting things to come out of all this, I think. Refs never criticise each other. They're a club. I suspect it's the national (Bok) paranoia at work. Even if I think they're right. Factually. I'd imagine the IRB will have something to say.

Oh and White has fully fallen off the ‘quiet and sensible’ wagon at last – check the BBC sport site for a long list of his whines and moans about how unfair the world is to Bok sides. His inner Clive is going public at last.

See above.

[Havak]

Work eating into rugby time yet again for me.

Tamerlin and LDiCesare - were the French Barbarians as poor as it sounded they were? Galthie, Bernat-Salles, Brouzet, Califano - it was looking good on paper - until I saw the name Townsend.

*edit* A belated happy birthday Caligastia. Missed that one. Of course it is all downhill after 30...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Work eating into rugby time yet again for me.

For the last time - get your priorities right!

Tamerlin and LDiCesare - were the French Barbarians as poor as it sounded they were? Galthie, Bernat-Salles, Brouzet, Califano - it was looking good on paper - until I saw the name Townsend.

I don't know what Tamerlin and LDiCesares think, but all reports indicate that the Barbs were in the match for a long time. Their pack did exactly the same thing to the Oz A pack that the French did to the Wallaby pack, which would have depressed Eddie. A barrage of second-half Oz A tries resulted in a flattering scoreline. The positives from the match for Eddie were David Lyons' barnstorming return to form and a strong debut from backrower Hoiles. Thus Lyons replaces the injured John Roe against the Scots, and Hoiles is elevated to the bench.

*edit* A belated happy birthday Caligastia. Missed that one. Of course it is all downhill after 30...

Hear hear!

[Havak]

Cripes. Want to borrow a centre?

Is that Mortlock fellow available?

Abbott has just started playing for Wasps A after injury – but to be honest I think he has fallen behind Ollie Smith in the pecking order when both are fit - Abbott was one of many found wanting on the tour (and coincidentally the back rower Chris Jones has never even benched for the side again after the humiliation he suffered in NZ).

The BBC forums are still providing me endless amusement as the Sale and Glaws muppets try to reason the six Tigers lads out of the side – particularly those trying to usurp Corry who is in magnificent form.

Which, of course, isn't going to hurt them in the next World Cup, is it?

That, or he'll have to supply Clyde Rathbone with mittens, ear muffs and a parka

he will need those at Murrayfield even if he is involved in every play – the wind whistles through that ground and chills to the bone. Take my word for it – it is based on experience.

Is a pattern emerging?

Hope so. Although average is probably too good – could you manage ‘well below average’ for Twickers please?

You can't blow the whistle, stop the game to talk to the captain, then claim the game hasn't stopped. It's not just the letter of the law.

Still look on the bright side – the Boks can claim to be victims for another ten years now?

I think he's now through his honeymoon period of (as it were) glory for resurrecting the team, and he's finding himself neck-deep in the hurly-burly and pressure of Test rugby. He might learn. He might not.

I think you are spot on there. Lets see how he reacts if one of his players gets binned for trying to kill Hodgson?

The IRB are being very quiet about the Referee debacle?

For the last time - get your priorities right!

Beer, Rugby, Apolyton, Work and she who can do no wrong. Maybe not in that exact order?

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Originally posted by Havak


Is that Mortlock fellow available?

Sorry, no, but I'm willing to lease you Morgan Turinui. He played in the A side on Tuesday. Strong, quick, runs great angles, knows where the try line is. He can't displace Mortlock, and our inside centre these days is usually a bona fide second 5/8. Poor old Morgan will struggle to get a game.

The BBC forums are still providing me endless amusement as the Sale and Glaws muppets try to reason the six Tigers lads out of the side – particularly those trying to usurp Corry who is in magnificent form.

Yes, I've noticed an absence of Leicester supporters on those forums. Can't they afford computers?

The IRB are being very quiet about the Referee debacle?

They are a bit. They've jumped up and down for less before this.

Beer, Rugby, Apolyton, Work and she who can do no wrong. Maybe not in that exact order?

Well, it's all in the context of the situation, isn't it. Reverse order if she asked.

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Hey Tamerlin. The Australian L***** team is playing the French L***** team in your town! Why haven't you put a stop to it!?

[ravagon]

Havak's not the only one losing time to infernal work!
There ought to be a law against it!

Caught a bit of that RSA-Ireland debacle. Ouch. Somebody please tell me that idiot ref isn't a Kiwi. Even if he is.

Hmmm. Wasn't he the one Tamerlin zapped with a plethora of 's not so long ago?
Could he have been right??!!
Even more troubling, if he was right about that then could he be right about other things too??


I can understand Hoeniss making a mistake and allowing the Irish to play on, but as soon as he realised the Boks were still following his instructions he should've disallowed the try and come back for the penalty.
There wasn't an advantage nor was there any need to stop the game or anything else. It had already stopped.
Not reversing it at that point was inexcusable. He screwed up and tried to blame it on the Bok skipper.
Kudo's to the Boks for handling it so calmly. If it'd been me out there I would've been absolutely livid.

Ditto for the aftermath. Actions have consequences for players. It shouldn't be any different for officials and that was a particularly horrendous snafu.

Beer, Rugby, Apolyton, Work and she who can do no wrong. Maybe not in that exact order?

She who can do no wrong, eh? I know a she who is always right. I wonder if they're related?

Incidentally, do tell who you're supporting in the NZ-Wales game ...
Please bear in mind though that your first choice, a sinkhole opening up underneath the stadium and swallowing both teams, has rather long odds.