Abortion to be outlawed by Bush in this term...

[dojoboy]

No.

But, you didn't really give me a good option to vote no. The truth is, there are too many moderate republicans who are pro-choice.

I for one would oppose an end to legal abortions. For many reasons, including the fact that I believe some fetuses are better off being aborted than being born to people who are incapable of raising them through acceptable means (financial, social, etc.). Not a good recipe.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Elok
The question of when human life begins is too...existential to be scientifically answered. So an embryo is just a lump of cells; so? A full-grown person is just a bigger, more complex lump of cells. Is there a scientific way to determine the meaning of life or something?

It should be perfectly obvious that no person who believes abortion is murder can, in good conscience, sit back and allow it to continue, out of "respect for the moral beliefs of others." That's not open-mindedness, it's thinly disguised cowardice. If you think somebody is dying, you have a personal obligation to stop it. If you oppose that position, so be it, but this is not the kind of issue that can be "solved" by trying to kill one's own conscience for the sake of social cohesion. That's patently ridiculous.

Perhaps a definiton will exist one day, but not today. But given the fact that no possible definition exists today, to ban the procedure by calling it murder is impossible- murder is a very specific act, the unlawful, malicious killing of another human being. There is such a thing as the lawful killing of a human being (justifiable homicide), and of course, if that act is not malicious, it is manslaughter, not murder.

So, even, EVEN, if we were to for some reason decide as a society (which we have not) that a fetus is a human being, that does not end the question of whether abortion should be legal or not, since only fools and hypocrites can believe that we actually live in a society that cares for all human life.

But I agree with Elok, that one of the ways to end abortions is to end the root causes- make it easier for a woman to raise a child, and rem,ove much of the stigma of getting pregnant under certain circumstances. And what was not mentioned- make powerful birth control available, and teach people how to use it.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Elok
The question of when human life begins is too...existential to be scientifically answered. So an embryo is just a lump of cells; so? A full-grown person is just a bigger, more complex lump of cells. Is there a scientific way to determine the meaning of life or something?

Humanity is a state of being. It's your memories and desires and thoughts and emotions all wrapped up.

Seeing your mother's smile and smiling back makes you human. Learning to use the toilet makes you human. Saying your first word or making your first ASL sign makes you human. Kissing a boy or a girl makes you human. Licking frogs with friends and laughing about it afterwards makes you human. Going to a funeral makes you human. Getting your first paycheque or panhandling enough for your first cup of coffee makes you human. Defending your thesis and receiving a PhD makes you human. Going to a funeral of a dear friend makes you human.

It is because of those things that the braindead are no longer human. It is because of those things that the unborn are not human.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Obviously, I'm out of touch with social conservatives.

Most of those that I know earn less than their peers because they have chosen to live different lives, and to live outside of the cities.

There used to be $10/hour factory jobs around here that someone not having a high school diploma could get, but most of those are gone.

There are many people in this area my age who were literally robbed of their futures by "conservatives". Back in the 1960s some counties in this area actually closed their public schools rather than integrate. One county in this area actually kept its schools closed for an entire decade. Kids in those areas who could not afford private schooling took jobs when they were old enough, but as unskilled jobs paying decent wages disappeared they found themselves at a serious disadvantage. I'm willing to bet that the majority of the people who grew up in those counties in that era are now unemployed. When you're 50, unemployed and only suited for manual labor your job prospects aren't very good, and a 50 year old having worked hard for 30 years often can't physically keep up with younger workers.

Sorry about the "pathetic" remark. These days are long and hard. I've often helped patients by directing them towards patient assistance programs offered by drug companies. These are programs giving away prescription medications. There is a great deal of paperwork involved usually. Now that we have a Medicare drug program many of these medications aren't available anymore. Unfortunately the Medicare program is largely a sham. Assistance kicks in only after a hefty deductible is met, and then only contributes 20% of the cost. An average patient gets $600/mo from SSI, but requires up to $ 300/mo. in medications. I'm really fed up with it all.

[Lung]

Talk about an issue dominated by raving lunatics on both sides.

Personally, i don't think the religious aspect of this debate holds any weight at all, but both extremes fail any scrutiny whatsoever. The question is, at what point does the rights of the foetus override the right of the mother?

Recent UN figures show a world human population of 1 trillion by 2300 if birth rates average 2.45 children per woman, so does the religious argument of all potential life having a right to be hold true and fair to humanity? Likewise, the "it's my body and i can do whatever i want with it" argument loses ground when you consider that a woman's involvement with her baby can continue after birth, and that a foetus beyond a certain age feels pain comparable to a newborn.

Even a cursory glance at the debate reveals that it's not an issue of if abortion should be illegal or not but when.

For chrissake, every horny thought is a potential human being and a popuation exceeding 1 trillion, so hysterical arguments that some holy book is interpreted so are irrelevant.

If you're going to debate the issue, you people, stick to the facts, not emotive rubbish.

Hi Mobius

[:) Smiley]

Population of 1 trillion in 2300? We'll send 'em into space.

[Whaleboy]

Personally, i don't think the religious aspect of this debate holds any weight at all, but both extremes fail any scrutiny whatsoever. The question is, at what point does the rights of the foetus override the right of the mother?

I don't think it's a case of raving lunatics. Forgive me for blowing my own trumpet but I am not so empassioned by this debate that I would go out of my way to refute opposing claims, I am simply saying what I think which is consistent with my own reasoning, as I would on any such issue. However, you raise an interesting question of when the rights of the foetus override the rights of the mother. That finds me a little awkward, since the point of "being" as I have it, implies an equilibrium of one being to another (existentially speaking). However, such is the nature of pregnancy, which is similar incidentally to that of prisoners in that they are conscious beings dependent entirely on another as might a parasite, that issues of responsibility come into play, so when the mother has a responsibility to keep the foetus alive, which by definition occurs at the point of being.

That leaves the anti-abortion arguments to attempt to show that being and lifeform are interchangeable, so we apply being status to an embryo at the point of inception. I have, as yet, seen no good argument for that.

[Spiffor]

I hope that Roe vs Wade will be overturned, and that abortion will become a right decided by each state, preferably through refendum.

At last the decision will be taken by the political area where it belongs, not by the justices.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I hope that Roe vs Wade will be overturned, and that abortion will become a right decided by each state, preferably through refendum.

That's the way it was headed in a lot of the country before the Court of the time showed its contempt for democracy and radicalized the debate on both sides.

[Arrian]

It really should be a state-level issue, because I don't think we'll agree on it nationally for the foreseable future.

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Well the problem is that the SCOTUS has poisoned the deabte surrounding the issue.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Science does say that human life begins at conception. So no dice there.

Really? What exactly does science say about conception and human life?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Smiley
Population of 1 trillion in 2300? We'll send 'em into space.

With what?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Really? What exactly does science say about conception and human life?

That it begins at conception. The fuzzyness you seem to be searching for is with the begining of sentience.

[Whaleboy]

That's the way it was headed in a lot of the country before the Court of the time showed its contempt for democracy and radicalized the debate on both sides.

You think popular opinion is the best way to determine this issue?

Really? What exactly does science say about conception and human life?

He's being very oblique there, he says "human life" with little explanation of how that concept works here, which I have endeavored to explore. Unfortunately I think I'm on his ignore list