Arafat Dead...

[Ned]

I mean, do you actually believe that the reason people object to Arafat is that he is against turning Palestine into a reservation of sorts?

[Pax]

I believe that both Palestinians and Isreali's have legitimate reasons to claim the land one believes to be Palestine and the other Isreal. I believe that a resolution has got to be reached that both groups can live with. I believe that Isreal does not want Palestinians to have a state at all and that if Palestine must be a state, that it should be one that has no ability to prosper or defend itself. So yes I do believe that the Isreali's have in the past i.e. before arafat died to turn palestine into a reservation state. After all, that is basically what it is now.
What I still don't understand is why you don't have strong feelings about liberating Palestine from the Isreali's. You support liberating Iraq when the people were not in rebellion but you don't seem to give a damn about the Palestinians. Your biggest concern is whether or not arafat was bad. How about whether or not the Palestinians are being treated fairly. Do you believe in liberty and justice for all?

[notyoueither]

I assume he'll say he believes in security for those who have been attacked for the last 60 years. Maybe he'll say that the stated aims of many of the Palestinians are still the destruction of Israel.

You expect a generous peace?

[Pax]

NYE,
i always point that the actions of isreal does not make them safe. it makes them targets. they have 3 options. a. learn to live in peace b. destroy all palestinians or c. destroy all isreali's. I woul choose a.

[notyoueither]

Well, the situation seems to be working OK for Israel. It seems to be the Palestinians who are getting jobbed.

I would say it is up to them to pick A, then support for Israel might melt away and a Martin Luther Arafat Jr could lead his people into some sort of promised land. But as long as they keep on the path of violence, forget it. They lose, more than anyone else.

[Pax]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, the situation seems to be working OK for Israel. It seems to be the Palestinians who are getting jobbed.

I would say it is up to them to pick A, then support for Israel might melt away and a Martin Luther Arafat Jr could lead his people into some sort of promised land. But as long as they keep on the path of violence, forget it. They lose, more than anyone else.

i think that if they were not violent nobody would give a damn and the situation would be worse for them.
i'm sure there are more oppressed peopl that are not mking noise. noone is thinking about them and they will remain oppresses until either they start making a stand or oil is found on their land. if that happens some country will liberate them(from their oil).

[notyoueither]

I think the Palestinians already have a corner on Arab attention, and have gained quite a share of European and 'American' minds.

I doubt we would lose track of them if they decided to give peace a chance. On the contrary, Mandela was not much more than a two-bit murdering thug until he reformed himself. When he did that, and convinced others that he and his movement were for peace, then the tide of world opinion helped sweep away one of the more barbaric regimes to ever grace this earth. That would not have happened if children in Pretoria were being blown up. Blowing up civilians would only have given those who wanted to support SA arguments to do so, and SA would still be a **** hole of racial seperation and violence.

[notyoueither]

In other words, if you think violence is helping, why is Sharon in power?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Pax
I believe that both Palestinians and Isreali's have legitimate reasons to claim the land one believes to be Palestine and the other Isreal. I believe that a resolution has got to be reached that both groups can live with. I believe that Isreal does not want Palestinians to have a state at all and that if Palestine must be a state, that it should be one that has no ability to prosper or defend itself. So yes I do believe that the Isreali's have in the past i.e. before arafat died to turn palestine into a reservation state. After all, that is basically what it is now.
What I still don't understand is why you don't have strong feelings about liberating Palestine from the Isreali's. You support liberating Iraq when the people were not in rebellion but you don't seem to give a damn about the Palestinians. Your biggest concern is whether or not arafat was bad. How about whether or not the Palestinians are being treated fairly. Do you believe in liberty and justice for all?

PAX, think about this:

1) I strongly support a Palestinian state and/or a united Israel that includes the whole of Palestine with the Arabs having equal rights; and

2) I strongly object to Arafat.

You still do not seem to have any clue as to WHY I or anyone else would object to Arafat, do you? You seem to equate objecting to Arafat as being the same as objecting to a Palestinian state.

[Winston]

I want to know what caused the guy to croak.

[DinoDoc]

Why? Just be glad he's dead.

[Winston]

I'm sure it's something embarrassing.

I'm also convinced that the media in general are much too PC to report the really naughty details on him.

[Pax]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I think the Palestinians already have a corner on Arab attention, and have gained quite a share of European and 'American' minds.

I doubt we would lose track of them if they decided to give peace a chance. On the contrary, Mandela was not much more than a two-bit murdering thug until he reformed himself. When he did that, and convinced others that he and his movement were for peace, then the tide of world opinion helped sweep away one of the more barbaric regimes to ever grace this earth. That would not have happened if children in Pretoria were being blown up. Blowing up civilians would only have given those who wanted to support SA arguments to do so, and SA would still be a **** hole of racial seperation and violence.

How long were the South African blacks oppressed and when and how did it get attention? The White South Africans position in South Africa was untenable. They finally recognized this and switched to a system that still gives them economic and a large amount of political power in that country. Good for them. But you can't prove that they were going to peacefully change there ways because much blood was spilled before S. Africa did away with apartheid. I love how the oppressed are always thugs. What the ****!!!! If the oppressed are thugs what do you call the oppressors. Angels Good decent law abiding citizens who just want to live in peace with there servants!! After all apartheid was legal. So any act against that law is thuggish nature right. I say that people who practice inequality create the thugs, create the riots, and create the suicide bombers. If you live in a just society or at least actually thrive for justice and equality then you can't blame the system. For more, read or watch cry thy beloved country. Written by a white south african. It addresses the apartheid issue very well.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Ned


PAX, think about this:

1) I strongly support a Palestinian state and/or a united Israel that includes the whole of Palestine with the Arabs having equal rights; and

2) I strongly object to Arafat.

You still do not seem to have any clue as to WHY I or anyone else would object to Arafat, do you? You seem to equate objecting to Arafat as being the same as objecting to a Palestinian state.

My apologies Ned. You have once again surprised me. Do you feel that the Palestinians, if they had there own state should have a military that could have a chance of defending them from the Isreali's?
I understand that you see Arafat as a criminal. But you must also understand that enough of the Palestinians do not. Just like enough americans do not see President Bush as a criminal. He is the leader of our country. The world has to respect that. The same goes for Arafat. Regardless of your opinion, at the time. He repped Palestine. Any deals have to go through him because he had enough support. It is wrong for an outside country to decide who another countries leader should be. This is the point that President Bush made in reference to Kerry's comments about foreign leaders wanting Kerry to be President. So we must agree that if it's good for President Bush it must be good for Arafat.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Pax
I love how the oppressed are always thugs.

I love how you justify the deliberate murder of women and children on the altar of your own ideaology and get insulted at us for calling you on it. The fact is that terrorism isn't working, costs the Palestinians many would be supporters, and is against thier long term interests by delaying the very thing they seek to acomplish as they blow up a bus of school kids.