Bush is getting desperate in his campaign.

[DanS]

This thread has started quoting campaign web sites? Oh the humanity.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Defiant
If you are right and the majority of the people hate us and they are the remnents of Saddam, they are our enemy and we should do what we did to Dresdon, correct. We fire bomb 1/4 of Falluja I guarrantee the rest will no longer resist.

Great idea. You will win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis in no time. Lots of them, separated from their bodies. And the rest if the population would love you for it even more than they love you already.

You will not see El Sadr again unless we hit Iran and there becomes a Shiite backlash, which will have to squash then, this a long endeavor, make no mistake about it.

I did not say he will return, I said there will be more uprisings. Iraq and especially the south are full of El Sadrs.

EDIT: By the way, the way you talk about the need to "squash uprisings" instead of fighting their reasons makes me doubt, that the Iraqis are better off under your thumb than under Saddams. He also solved his problems by "squashing uprisings".

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Arrian
You think that firebombing a city would reduce resistance?

Maybe from that city, since most of 'em would be dead, but the rest of the country would erupt.

-Arrian

You're right, it really didn't work in Japan when we nuked two cities, they continued to fight to the very end.

Look I am no backer of massive loss of life like this, I believe there are better ways, however, in some circumstances if you don't fight at the ferocity level or greater of your opponent, sometimes you are doomed from the beginning.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Great idea. You will win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis in no time. Lots of them, separated from their bodies. And the rest if the population would love you for it even more than they love you already.



I did not say he will return, I said there will be more uprisings. Iraq and especially the south are full of El Sadrs.

EDIT: By the way, the way you talk about the need to "squash uprisings" instead of fighting their reasons makes me doubt, that the Iraqis are better off under your thumb than under Saddams. He also solved his problems by "squashing uprisings".

You have to remember these people that are uprising are the enemy, and as a percentage of the total population, it is a fraction. Once all these radicals are "subdued" and they start to listen to what we are trying to do for them, I don't see why any "fair" minded person would object. Now if they want to continue with a radical version of their religion, we do have a problem and we cannot let that continue, a democracy has to be set, fair for everybody.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Drachasor


He has detailed the spending, and non-partisan groups have gone over his proposal.

The roll-back will fully cover the Healthcare costs, and perhaps then some.

Kerry is someone that believes in showing where the money is coming from for new proposals, and he does do that.

-Drachasor

Come on Drach, even Kerry admits that raising the taxes on the so-called rice nets only 800 billion, leaving a 400 billion shortfall.

And, Kerry has already earmarked the SAME money to cut the deficit in half.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Defiant
You're right, it really didn't work in Japan when we nuked two cities, they continued to fight to the very end.

Look I am no backer of massive loss of life like this, I believe there are better ways, however, in some circumstances if you don't fight at the ferocity level or greater of your opponent, sometimes you are doomed from the beginning.

They surrendered in the war because they realized they couldn't win it.

If we hadn't of been there and devoted massive efforts to modernizing and helping them, then they would have hated us. Equally important is the fact they expected us to kill them, enslave them, etc, as they did to others. Their gratitude on the fact we didn't treat them as horribly as they treated their enemies is a massive part of why it worked.

Iraq isn't like that, the culture is too different, we are already there, and there are too many other different factors that make the analogy unworkable.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ned


Come on Drach, even Kerry admits that raising the taxes on the so-called rice nets only 800 billion, leaving a 400 billion shortfall.

And, Kerry has already earmarked the SAME money to cut the deficit in half.

Outside and inside estimates of the health-care plan indicate it will cost about 660 billion or so, if memory serves (it is somewhere in the 600-billions).

Only extremely biased estimates have said otherwise.


-Drachasor

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Call it "Saddams backyard" all you want, the fact remains, that the people there hate the guts out of you and more than willingly give the resistors and the terrorists (I draw a line between them) food and shelter. The north is largely Kurdish and quiet as long as you respect their wish for relative autonomy. The Shiite south has seen uprisings (El Sadr comes to mind) and will see them again, it's just a matter of time.

You know, you could say the very same thing about the North's occupation of the South. But, that still does not mean that the Civil War was not a just war.

[Arrian]

Japan =! Iraq. Germany =! Iraq.

Furthermore, we're telling the Iraqi people we are not fighting against them, but rather we are trying to help them become a democracy. The war is over, remember (so sayeth teh Dubya)?

When we obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were involved in a total war with Imperial Japan. The Japanese people at that particular time WERE our enemies (despicable as that may be, it's true), not just the IJA/IJN. It's very important, from the perspective of "winning the peace" in Iraq, to *not* give the Iraqis the impression we are their enemies. The people working against us in Iraq would LOVE it if we did something this stupid. They would then turn around and tell Iraqis "see, all that bad stuff we've been telling you about the Americans is TRUE!"

For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).

-Arrian

[Sava]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It's the National Journal (hardly a conservative rag) that makes him out to be such liberal and Kerry's campaign that acts as if the term is an awful insult.

yeah, that National Journal study of Senate votes studied the year when Kerry missed like 70% of votes... hardly accurate if you ask me.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Arrian
Japan =! Iraq. Germany =! Iraq.

Furthermore, we're telling the Iraqi people we are not fighting against them, but rather we are trying to help them become a democracy. The war is over, remember (so sayeth teh Dubya)?

When we obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were involved in a total war with Imperial Japan. The Japanese people at that particular time WERE our enemies (despicable as that may be, it's true), not just the IJA/IJN. It's very important, from the perspective of "winning the peace" in Iraq, to *not* give the Iraqis the impression we are their enemies. The people working against us in Iraq would LOVE it if we did something this stupid. They would then turn around and tell Iraqis "see, all that bad stuff we've been telling you about the Americans is TRUE!"

For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).

-Arrian

Arrian,
First of all, he never said the War was over, Mission Accomplished for a battle group and we had taken over the infrastructure of Iraq. The war against terror goes on, show me where Bush said the war on terror is over.

Secondly,
Sir Ralf indicated that Fullaja residents are willfully helping the insurgents and I said if that is correct, it makes them like a Japan or Germany, we are against that city. And we should treat it as such, meaning, bringing the devastation so miserable to them, that we take the fight out of them.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Defiant
You have to remember these people that are uprising are the enemy,

They are YOUR enemies. I doubt the majority in Iraq calls, for example, Fallujahs population "enemy".

and as a percentage of the total population, it is a fraction. Once all these radicals are "subdued" and they start to listen to what we are trying to do for them, I don't see why any "fair" minded person would object.

I doubt you would gain the trust of the rest of the Iraqis by slaughtering their brothers, and be it only "a fraction". Imagine, for some reason the USA were occupied by a foreign power and there would be an uprising, say, in California, against the occupants. If they would squash it by firebombing (like you said), or by slaughtering the "rebels" otherwise, would the rest of the American population now obey?

Now if they want to continue with a radical version of their religion, we do have a problem and we cannot let that continue, a democracy has to be set, fair for everybody.

If you try to impose a democracy in the Iraqis (or anybody else for that matter), you will fail miserably. You can not force a democracy at a gun point. The Iraqis will choose their form of government themselves, and if they choose to be a Theocracy, so be it.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Arrian
For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).

-Arrian

Losing, only if you listen to the anti-Bush media. The people who come here from Iraq to thank us are utterly shocked by the level of pessimism protrayed by the anti-Bush press.

[Arrian]

Right, sure Ned. Just like we would have won in Vietnam if that goddamned liberal traitor press hadn't mucked it up?



-Arrian

[Sava]

Originally posted by Defiant


Arrian,
First of all, he never said the War was over, Mission Accomplished for a battle group and we had taken over the infrastructure of Iraq.

Did you even listen to that speech? He said major combat operations are over. We need to come up with a name for the universe you live in... it's not quite the Nedaverse... maybe the Defiantaverse.