Bush is getting desperate in his campaign.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Drachasor


Kerry is not proposing a government-run healthcare system. He is proposing that the government helps pool the resources and bargaining power of everyone together and provide some financial assistance in order to get healthcare. Companies would still run the actual healthcare system.

Bush doesn't have any real proposals to fix the problem. He only talks about trial lawyers, and they are a *relatively* minor issue; they don't increase insurance costs much, and they don't affect most doctors. Kerry also wants to solve the trial lawyer issue, however he wants to do it in a way that will still allow people to sue in just cases.

-Drachasor

Somehow, I think you are confusing Bush's plan with Kerry's. It is Bush who is in favor of allowing small business to ban together to get the same benefits as big companies, and to provide health centers for those who don't have health insurance. It is Bush who favor want true tort reform.

Kerry's plans go way beyond this in that what he proposes has nothing to do with the problems of small business and the poor, but offers instead a major takeover of the health insurance industry by the government.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Ned


Somehow, I think you are confusing Bush's plan with Kerry's. It is Bush who is in favor of allowing small business to ban together to get the same benefits as big companies, and to provide health centers for those who don't have health insurance. It is Bush who favor want true tort reform.

Kerry's plans go way beyond this in that what he proposes has nothing to do with the problems of small business and the poor, but offers instead a major takeover of the health insurance industry by the government.

That's also what I heard in the last debate.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ned
Did you hear Allawi? Or do you dismiss him as a Bush stooge as did Kerry.

Yeah, Sir Ralph, I suspect the German people react with glee at every beheading, at every mass slaughter of civilians by Zarqawi and most particularly, at every act of sabatoge of the oil pipelines, as this only goes to show just how bad the liberation of Iraq is to the people of Iraq.

You have no understanding of the german people.

As far as Iraq goes, the people generally would like the American's to succeed (what choice do they have now?) However, the prospects simply aren't that great and a lot of fairly bad things are happening. Civilians, especially children, getting show by American troops has turned many communities against in general. Often when they had gotten together and elected a community leader when we came in, we removed that leader and put in charge one of Saddam's people. It is a truth to say that a lot of Saddam's people are still in charge, and this doesn't look like it will change soon.

We don't have enough troops on the ground either, which means that instead of walking through communities and getting to know the people there, our troops must blaze through on vehicles with guns at the ready; no time to talk. We can't win the trust of the Iraqis like that.

They might want us to succeed, but they also don't trust us a lot, nor are they happy about the fact there is an occupation.

-Drachasor

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Ned
Did you hear Allawi? Or do you dismiss him as a Bush stooge as did Kerry.

If there is a personnification of the word "Bush stooge", its name is Allawi.

Yeah, Sir Ralph, I suspect the German people react with glee at every beheading, at every mass slaughter of civilians by Zarqawi and most particularly, at every act of sabatoge of the oil pipelines, as this only goes to show just how bad the liberation of Iraq is to the people of Iraq.

They condemn every crime, torture and mass slaughter of civilians equally harsh, no matter which side committed it. And they, in contrast to you, see the simple truth, that an insurgency of these dimensions (a better word would be resistance) would not be possible without broad support in the Iraqi population.

That said, and considering the amount of hatred and the lack of reason in your last post, I am tired to discuss with you. Have a great day in the realm of bigotry.

[Q Classic]

That said, and considering the amount of hatred and the lack of reason in your last post, I am tired to discuss with you. Have a great day in the realm of bigotry.

sir ralph, isn't it obvious? if you don't support bush, you're a traitor. and because you're german and a traitor, you must therefore be a nazi--and therefore take glee in the mass murder of lesser peoples.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Drachasor


You have no understanding of the german people.

As far as Iraq goes, the people generally would like the American's to succeed (what choice do they have now?) However, the prospects simply aren't that great and a lot of fairly bad things are happening. Civilians, especially children, getting show by American troops has turned many communities against in general. Often when they had gotten together and elected a community leader when we came in, we removed that leader and put in charge one of Saddam's people. It is a truth to say that a lot of Saddam's people are still in charge, and this doesn't look like it will change soon.

We don't have enough troops on the ground either, which means that instead of walking through communities and getting to know the people there, our troops must blaze through on vehicles with guns at the ready; no time to talk. We can't win the trust of the Iraqis like that.

They might want us to succeed, but they also don't trust us a lot, nor are they happy about the fact there is an occupation.

-Drachasor

We will get the troops on the ground, but it has to be Iraqi troops, it doesn't need to be us.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Ned
Somehow, I think you are confusing Bush's plan with Kerry's. It is Bush who is in favor of allowing small business to ban together to get the same benefits as big companies, and to provide health centers for those who don't have health insurance. It is Bush who favor want true tort reform.

Kerry's plans go way beyond this in that what he proposes has nothing to do with the problems of small business and the poor, but offers instead a major takeover of the health insurance industry by the government.

Hmm, no I just misunderstood Kerry's, I suppose. I thought I had heard him say something like that on an individual level.

Anyhow, here is a link to his plan:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/

And there are more links on the right side to specific details.

He wants to cut waste, refund companies for the extremely expensive cases that can come up and drastically raise premiums. He wants them to have access to the same plans that Senators do, which IS NOT government-run healthcare. There would be tax-credits to help ease the cost as well.

When a private company is giving out the benefits, you do not have government-run healthcare.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Defiant


We will get the troops on the ground, but it has to be Iraqi troops, it doesn't need to be us.

You mean those Iraqi troops with bad equipment and 3 weeks of training? Because almost all of the 100,000 Bush talks about only have gone through a 3-week program.

The Iraqi forces will not be ready for a long time. If Bush proceeds, then they never will be ready even if there are a lot of them.

-Drachasor

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


If there is a personnification of the word "Bush stooge", its name is Allawi.



They condemn every crime, torture and mass slaughter of civilians equally harsh, no matter which side committed it. And they, in contrast to you, see the simple truth, that an insurgency of these dimensions (a better word would be resistance) would not be possible without broad support in the Iraqi population.

That said, and considering the amount of hatred and the lack of reason in your last post, I am tired to discuss with you. Have a great day in the realm of bigotry.

Sir Ralph,
It is easy to get broad support when you play the game that the insurgents to, work with us or die(along with your family), we don't play by those rules therefore we are at a disadvantage. It is widely known by just everyone that it is a few thousand that are causing all the havoc, and with terror tactics they can controll the civilians of a city the size of Falluja, fact is, they are more afraid of them than us, and that is the way it should be, we have to overcome that.
That sir, is the simple fact.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Drachasor


You mean those Iraqi troops with bad equipment and 3 weeks of training? Because almost all of the 100,000 Bush talks about only have gone through a 3-week program.

The Iraqi forces will not be ready for a long time. If Bush proceeds, then they never will be ready even if there are a lot of them.

-Drachasor

I know you want this all done in a FEDEX schedule but it takes time, these new recruits are also afraid, it takes time but it will happen.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Defiant
Sir Ralph,
It is easy to get broad support when you play the game that the insurgents to, work with us or die(along with your family), we don't play by those rules therefore we are at a disadvantage. It is widely known by just everyone that it is a few thousand that are causing all the havoc, and with terror tactics they can controll the civilians of a city the size of Falluja, fact is, they are more afraid of them than us, and that is the way it should be, we have to overcome that.
That sir, is the simple fact.

If you believe this "work with us or die" rubbish, which would work with individuals, but never with the whole population af a city or region even, I have no hope to enlighten you. Seek your truth here.

[Defiant]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


If you believe this "work with us or die" rubbish, which would work with individuals, but never with the whole population af a city or region even, I have no hope to enlighten you. Seek your truth here.

Iraq was under it for 30 years, of coarse it can be done, and you are also talking about the Sunni Triangle which is Saddam's backyard, you are going to get greater support for the insurgents. The north and the south in Iraq are relatively quiet, this Sunni triangle is the stronghold. Some could argue that we need to do there what we did to Germany in WWII, just annihilate the region and start over.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

That said, and considering the amount of hatred and the lack of reason in your last post, I am tired to discuss with you. Have a great day in the realm of bigotry.

sir ralph, isn't it obvious? if you don't support bush, you're a traitor. and because you're german and a traitor, you must therefore be a nazi--and therefore take glee in the mass murder of lesser peoples.

No. Sir Ralph just cannot handle the gross inconsistency in Germany's position. Germany hates Bush for proceeding in Iraq despite their "advice," and dismisses as stoogism all thanks the people of Iraq give Bush and the US for their liberation. They say they will not lift a finger to help the Iraqis in this their time of need because Bush is personna non grata. When I sarcasticly say that the people of Iraq will always remember Germany's support, Sir Ralph laughs, but continues to declare the allied effort in Iraq mistaken. When I ask whether the German people rejoice in the mayhem and chaos, he says I am a bigot for asking; but the actions of the German people speak louder than words. The greater the chaos and destruction, the more the Germans are satisfied that they were right and that Bush was wrong. They will not lift a finger to help the Iraqi people because that would be an admission that they were wrong to oppose its liberation in the first place. They are content to see the Iraqi people continue to suffer to justify their oppostion and hatred of Bush.

Now, what would an Iraqi who wants to be free think of the Germans?

[Harovan]

Call it "Saddams backyard" all you want, the fact remains, that the people there hate the guts out of you and more than willingly give the resistors and the terrorists (I draw a line between them) food and shelter. The north is largely Kurdish and quiet as long as you respect their wish for relative autonomy. The Shiite south has seen uprisings (El Sadr comes to mind) and will see them again, it's just a matter of time.

[Ramo]

Of course, if we ignore the NPR interview where he pledged to vastly reduce troop levels there within 6 months of being elected after beating Bush over the head because there weren't enough troops there in his opinion then you'd be abso;utely correct.

I believe that the word used in NPR was "significantly," not "vastly." In any case a "significant reduction" by no means is an evacuation.

As for the supposed contradiction, the idea's to make up the deficit in bringing other countries in (or at least, stopping other countries from leaving)/training Iraqis.
Further, this is a later stage in the occupation that requires less of a foreign presence; chances are, the Iraqi gov't will be elected (at least to some extent, by some measure) by the time Kerry takes office, and thus will have more legitimacy.

I don't particularly like Kerry's "plan", but he doesn't sound like he'll leave straight away, and anything's better than the mind-boggling incompetence/malevolence of this administration.

I don't really believe Ramo so that's open to debate at this point.

What don't you believe? That Novak said that the Bush Admin is planning on cutting and running, or that Novak is correct?