In Defence of Japanese Culture

[Q Classic]

If people are forced to use Chinese by illegal means, you may have a point.

those people learn chinese because there is a lack of an alternative when they first get to use the language.

most people stick with windows because there is a lack of an alternative when they first buy or use a computer.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

most computers in the world run microsoft windows. surely they can't be wrong.

Some people believe windows are great. Others believes it is immoral to use windows (and support microsoft). Their opinions are equally valid.

[Q Classic]

Some people believe windows are great. Others believes it is immoral to use windows (and support microsoft). Their opinions are equally valid.

hush, you, i'm trying to show that UR's assertion is t3h wr0ng!

[Snowflake]

A valid test would be to ask a American/British borned Chinese kid and a Chinese borned American/British kid whether he/she feels it easier to learn English words or Chinese characters.

[Q Classic]

that's true. i know one for both, and i could ask them...

however, it's not completely fair, either, seeing as in america, most second gen children forget their ancestor's language very fast.

[pchang]

I am an American born Chinese and I think written English was easier than written Chinese but spoken Chinese was a bit easier than spoken English (however, spoken Chinese is pretty much impossible if you are tone deaf).

Chinese for me = Mandarin, Cantonese, and Shanghainese

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

If people are forced to use Chinese by illegal means, you may have a point.

those people learn chinese because there is a lack of an alternative when they first get to use the language.

Own goal.

This also applies to English and all other languages.

[Q Classic]

own goal? dude, i was pointing out why this:

1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong

isn't true.

[DaShi]

I have a friend who often text messages me in Chinese. This helps my reading and writing of Chinese, but is absolutely useless for speaking or listening to the language. When I advise my students on how to improve their spoken English, I encourage reading. The writing and speaking in English are very closely linked and improving one often aids the other.

My biggest problem with Chinese is that it a monosyllabic language with limited major sounds. To remedy this, there a tonal system, but it lacks clarity. Distinguishing tones is much more difficult than distinguishing differing vowel or consonant sounds. Fortunately, there are more words that require two or more sounds. They are easier to identify and generally sound better. Then there's the problem of how those few sounds are pronounced regardless of tones. Many Chinese pronounce words like fan and fang so similarily that some of them have complained to me that it is annoying to decipher. Even fen and fan are difficult as I discovered when trying determine a student's name today. Her peers could look at her written name to easily understand; but to someone who has not memorized so many characters, her written name is useless to me in Chinese (I don't need to know it's meaning, just how to pronounce it). While the pinyin system is a blessing to a learner of Chinese, the tones still remain a major obstacle as they are omitted from most pinyin spellings. Thus, I easily forget them because; one, there are so many similar sounding words it is easy to be confused; and two, without a written form describing them, I find it difficult to remember them.

Some of the foreign teachers have begun an interesting experiment here. We've found that if you try to speak clearly in proper Chinese, taxi driver won't understand you. However, if you deliberately slur your words, they know exactly where you want to go. So now, bao chu bei lu has become bah shu beh loo. I think its just the taxi cab drivers. Otherwise, everyone here should be able to understand my choppy mispronounced Chinese.

I am an American born Chinese and I think written English was easier than written Chinese but spoken Chinese was a bit easier than spoken English (however, spoken Chinese is pretty much impossible if you are tone deaf).

I'm starting to think this is my problem. At least, judging from my singing.

That's speed reading.

No, that's normal reading. Speed reading is being able to quickly digest a sentence by isolating the key words in it and forcing yourself to move on. This is also aided in English as many word forms have common spellings. Verbs are often the easiest to isolate and recognize by their prefixes. Proper punctuation also aids in creating a sentence map and allowing a reader to move more quickly.

You do that by taking a phonetic system and hammer it into - you guess it - a ideographic system. Thus proving the advantage of ideographic systems.

What? That in a phonetic system you can do both (sound out and see)? Saying that you 'hammer it into" an ideographic system is misleading. The visual component of a written phonetic language is already present to begin with. A reader is not altering it in anyway. That's the purpose of having a written language. Phonetic writing is advantageous by giving you more information than ideographic writing. How can you claim that ideographic systems are superior using this line of reasoning?

1.2 billion Chinese can't be wrong

Not all of them can read or write.

As for Chinese having fewer words, I personally like having a larger palette to work with. Hence my dislike of monosyllablism. More sounds make for a livelier conversation.

[Tingkai]

Re: In Defence of Japanese Culture

Originally posted by Evil Knevil
The problem is that he's a mental sinophille and a miserable nippophobe. At every damn opportunity, he curses Japan. Even when we're talking about something else entirely.

His line of argument is basically this: the Japanese don't have a culture of their own. They stole their warrior ethics, food and art from ancient Chinese Dynasties. On and on he goes.

Try using his attack against himself.

Evil: So you love Chinese culture

nippophobe: Yup, it's the only civilised culture in the world. Everything about it is great.

Evil: And you hate Japanese culture, right?

nippophobe: Yup, they stole everything from the Chinese.

Evil: If they stole everything from the Chinese then Japanese culture is just another regional Chinese culture, like Shanghainese or Cantonese culture. So if you love Chinese culture than you can't hate Japanese culture because to hate Japanese culture is to hate Chinese culture.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by DaShi
My biggest problem with Chinese is that it a monosyllabic language with limited major sounds. To remedy this, there a tonal system, but it lacks clarity. Distinguishing tones is much more difficult than distinguishing differing vowel or consonant sounds.

Chinese people do not feel any awkward with the four tones but yes it is a major difficulty for foreigners in learning Chinese (which has produced many friendly jokes). I believe this is perhaps a thing that you need to get used to when you are young...

As for the taxi drivers, I think they've adapted to the way foreigners pronounce certain street names, and that's why they could understand your more blurry pronounciations.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Snowflake


Chinese people do not feel any awkward with the four tones but yes it is a major difficulty for foreigners in learning Chinese (which has produced many friendly jokes). I believe this is perhaps a thing that you need to get used to when you are young...

As for the taxi drivers, I think they've adapted to the way foreigners pronounce certain street names, and that's why they could understand your more blurry pronounciations.

After seven years in Hong Kong, I still can't speak Cantonese (much to my embarrassment and it even worse given that my ancestors came from China). I really struggle with the tones, both in hearing it and speaking the tones.

As for taxi drivers, when I first got here, I lived on an outlying island so I figured I should learn how to say ferry terminal: Lai do ma tau (or something like that). I practiced and a friend said you got it. Next time I was in a taxi, I said Lai do ma tau. Taxi driver nods and takes off. I'm thinking rather smugly that learning Cantonese is going to be a breeze. My confidence quickly disappeared when the taxi started driving up to the Mid-levels.

[Snowflake]

I'm not sure about the tones of Cantonese myself. It's almost an entirely different language.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DaShi
No, that's normal reading.

Not quite. Among all my friends I had when I was studying in the US, less than 5% read by looking at the word shape. More than 95% read by mentally pronouncing the words.

Just for reference, I went to a "highly competitive" college.

Originally posted by DaShi
The visual component of a written phonetic language is already present to begin with.

Not quite. Words like "through" and "thru", "light" and "lite" have different forms but the same meaning. The words in a phonetic language is based on sounds, not visual cues.

Originally posted by DaShi
Phonetic writing is advantageous by giving you more information than ideographic writing. How can you claim that ideographic systems are superior using this line of reasoning?

How? As I pointed out, Chinese translations of English books are always shorter than the originals.

Originally posted by DaShi
As for Chinese having fewer words, I personally like having a larger palette to work with. Hence my dislike of monosyllablism. More sounds make for a livelier conversation.

You don't quite know Chinese. The basic building block is not the character but the ci, similar to short phrases in English.

As for this "monosyllablism" bit, it does not apply in Chinese (and probably in any language, for that matter). For one thing, people don't speak one single word at a time, they speak sentences.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Next time I was in a taxi, I said Lai do ma tau. Taxi driver nods and takes off. I'm thinking rather smugly that learning Cantonese is going to be a breeze. My confidence quickly disappeared when the taxi started driving up to the Mid-levels.

You probably said it with a "d" sound istead of a "t" sound. "Dau" is close enough to be mistaken for the character of "road." I don't know there's a lai do ma road at the Mid-levels, but I am not familar with that area.