Bestest Presidents

[David Floyd]

Andrew Jackson:
1. The man who refused to perform his presidential duty by upholding the Supreme Court's rulings. We're damn lucky it didn't become a common precedent.

Actually it did - Abe Lincoln ignored Ex parte Merryman, and FDR in effect did the same thing by strong-arming SCOTUS by threatening to pack the court.

Moral Hazard,

Yes I was referring to National Unity. Comparing it to the American Revolution is a stretch, since colonies are in far a different position, then the American south was.

Well, the Constitution is what tied the United States together as a nation to begin with. I don't see how you can put national unity ahead of the Constitution, because the Constitution is the basis for the US - or at least, a free US.

As for the colonies vs. Southern states, of course there were differences, but the similarity was that the colonies decided they wanted to pursue their own course independent of Great Britain, and the Southern states decided to pursue their own course independent on the USA. Now, I don't know what British law at the time said about secession and revolution - although I'd certainly guess that it was illegal - but nothing in the Constitution forbade secession in 1861, nor did any law on the books.

[Ted Striker]

.

[MrFun]

Ted Striker, is there something you want to talk about?

[David Floyd]

MrFun, I still haven't heard your argument for how Lincoln actually upheld his oath of office, by violating the Constitution...

[MrFun]

And I already know better than to get myself into the libertarian dimension of bullsh*t.

[Ted Striker]

Lincoln held the Union together and put an end to the most disgusting institution in the history of the United States. This makes him a bad President how?

[David Floyd]

It isn't Libertarianism, unless you believe that Chief Justice Taney was a Libertarian - and he certainly was not.

[Ted Striker]

No but I'm sure the argument is often used in the Libertarian Argument Handbook.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd
It isn't Libertarianism, unless you believe that Chief Justice Taney was a Libertarian - and he certainly was not.

I will grant you that -- there are crazy neo-Confederates today who would side with you even if they themselves are not libertarians.



The Southern states had no legitimate grievance on which to secede (if, hypothetically, I grant you that secession was legal).

Or are you suggesting that states can secede willy-nilly on no justifiable grounds?

[David Floyd]

Lincoln held the Union together and put an end to the most disgusting institution in the history of the United States. This makes him a bad President how?

The ends do not justify the means. He had no legal right to suspend habeas corpus, and no legal right to ignore a Supreme Court decision, even though he had the military force to do so. He was essentially a dictator. He waged a war of aggression against a nation that simply wanted independence - and yes, slavery was awful, but that's no excuse for a war. Lincoln and his allies in Congress started the first draft in US history, in order to supply cannon fodder for an increasingly unpopular war. On top of that, Lincoln meddled in the votes of various State Legislatures, in order to make sure the vote went his way.

The morality of slavery is irrelevant as to whether Lincoln acted in a Constitutional manner.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd


The ends do not justify the means. He had no legal right to suspend habeas corpus, and no legal right to ignore a Supreme Court decision, even though he had the military force to do so. He was essentially a dictator. He waged a war of aggression against a nation that simply wanted independence - and yes, slavery was awful, but that's no excuse for a war. Lincoln and his allies in Congress started the first draft in US history, in order to supply cannon fodder for an increasingly unpopular war. On top of that, Lincoln meddled in the votes of various State Legislatures, in order to make sure the vote went his way.

The morality of slavery is irrelevant as to whether Lincoln acted in a Constitutional manner.

The Confederacy was the first one to initiate the draft.

[David Floyd]

I will grant you that -- there are crazy neo-Confederates today who would side with you even if they themselves are not libertarians.

Well, when I argue the Constitution and cite actual Supreme Court cases, I'm not basing my arguments on Libertarianism, am I?

Or are you suggesting that states can secede willy-nilly on no justifiable grounds?

Certainly I am. The 9th and 10th Amendments grant states the implied power/right to secede, Article 1 Section 10 does not forbid states from secession, and Article 1 Section 8 does not empower the federal government to prevent secession.

[MrFun]

Are you going to acknowledge the fact that the Confederacy was first to initiate the draft?


And when Washington DC was completely surrounded by hostile enemy in Maryland, of course suspension of habeas corpus was justified.

[David Floyd]

The Confederacy was the first one to initiate the draft.

Your point? Stalin killed millions of people before Hitler even got started, does that make Hitler's actions OK? The Germans bombed London before the British/Americans leveled Dresden - does that make the destruction of Dresden OK? And so forth and so on.

We aren't talking about what the CSA did, we're talking about what Lincoln and the USA did. I fully admit that the CSA was not a freedom loving nation, either.

[David Floyd]

And when Washington DC was completely surrounded by hostile enemy in Maryland, of course suspension of habeas corpus was justified.

It was unconstitutional, as the Supreme Court properly ruled in Ex parte Merryman.