A Warning for JohnT

[Immortal Wombat]

surely life incarceration solves both problems

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Oerdin
The chance of executing the wrong peson is vanishingly small with modern scientific tools but the likely hood of saving innocent lives is very high. To say you won't save all of those people because you are morally afraid that someone some where might possibly be wrongfully accussed isn't moral. I'd say it is immoral to let those inncocent people die. In such a light the death penalty is surely justified.

I still disagree with both your assertions (that the chance of executing the wrong person is small and the chance of saving lives is high) and still, my point is that if pre-meditated murder is wrong it's wrong, whether it's done by the state or an individual.

Killing someone to stop an immediate threat (eg a gunman on a rampage being killed by police) is one thing, that's justifiable, murdering someone who is incarcerated and poses no further threat to society has absolutely no justification. It's murder, pure and simple and that's wrong. Even if your suggestion that it saved lives were true.

[Dinner]

I don't see it as wrong; instead I see it as a justifiable penalty for the worst criminals of our society. The fact that numeropus studies also show this deters other crime is just a bonus.

I guess we will never agree though I admite you have a valid argument and I hope you will also admite that I have a valid argument.

[Dinner]

This seems to be how must death penalty cases end up.

The anti-DP guy claims that no matter what personal responsability for executing the wrong people should be avoided while the pro-DP guy claims that the most innocent lives should be saved. It's a pure value argument and as such there can be no winner.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
surely life incarceration solves both problems

What ever deterrent effect execution has surely life in prison (especially when life in prison often means 20 years in prison) has a much, much smaller deterrent effect. In many cases life in prison is a more just punishment then execution though. I'd only put up execution for the worst of the worst especially if they were repeat offenders as doing so would virtually eliminate the possibility of an innocent man being wrongfully accussed.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Oerdin
I don't see it as wrong; instead I see it as a justifiable penalty for the worst criminals of our society. The fact that numeropus studies also show this deters other crime is just a bonus.

I guess we will never agree though I admite you have a valid argument and I hope you will also admite that I have a valid argument.

Of course, sometimes agreeing to disagree is all you can do. It's easy to get emotive and give or take personal offense about issues like this but at the end of the day everyone has much more in common with everyone else than they have differences.

In this case it's not surprising that we see the issue differently, our views on this generally reflect majority opinion in the countries we come from. We're the products of our societies. I don't think there's any absolute right or wrong (on this or any other issue), everyone just has to make up their own mind.

[Japher]

just call it post-natal abortion and let the fanatics work it out...

[GePap]

Interesting paper on the new deterrence studies: and you don't have to pay for this one

http://preprints.stat.ucla.edu/396/JELS.pap.pdf

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Oerdin


What ever deterrent effect execution has surely life in prison (especially when life in prison often means 20 years in prison) has a much, much smaller deterrent effect. In many cases life in prison is a more just punishment then execution though. I'd only put up execution for the worst of the worst especially if they were repeat offenders as doing so would virtually eliminate the possibility of an innocent man being wrongfully accussed.

Funny . . . . . .


I thought psychologists believed that when people murder, they are not thinking about the possible punishment anyway.

If that is the case, then where is the deterrent factor?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by MikeH
Death penalty for children?

God the US is third world sometimes.

Oh my gosh we're so cruel to people who take a gun and kill their parents because they're not allowed to visit boys at night... right.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
I am perpetually both amused and scared how people can say that with a straight face.

Are you also scared how kidnappers are sent to jail?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Vengeance, punitive revenge is not justice. It may feel like justice to those who have been wronged, or those with the pretense of moral outrage to save face with their peers, but it is not objective justice, which is defined as being objective to humans. Vengeance is indeed the complete antithesis to justice, by definition they are inversely proportional.

Not at all. Vengeance and justice are DIRECTLY related. Justice and utilitarianism are not the same thing; justice is not even really doing what's "right". Justice is applying consequences proportional to the crime.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Oh and I saw someone say this girl is evil. If you're trolling; 2/10. If you're serious, then methinks you need help yourself.

How in the name of hell can you possibly say that someone is evil because of one action?

It's pretty simple, actually. If I built a Death Star and blew up the planet, I think it'd be pretty accurate to label me evil.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by MrFun
Funny . . . . . .


I thought psychologists believed that when people murder, they are not thinking about the possible punishment anyway.

If that is the case, then where is the deterrent factor?

Some people are and some people aren't. It depends.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Not at all. Vengeance and justice are DIRECTLY related. Justice and utilitarianism are not the same thing; justice is not even really doing what's "right". Justice is applying consequences proportional to the crime.

Actually, NO. Justice is the action society deems necessary to undo or stop the damage done by one invidual doing something that endagers the stability and continuation of the group. The mian issue is not the crime, but the possible consequencs to society from the act and the danger posed by the passions inflamed.

Vengence is an attempt to "balance" the damage done by causing damage to the entity seen as responsible. This damage may or may not increase the overall damage done to the stability and continuation of society, and hence it is discouraged or brought under control.