Russia plans to arm Venezuela to counter US backed Colombia.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
But as you stated there were monitors present during the last elections. Former President Carter being one of them.

You expressed your distaste regarding said ex-president. Is it your opinion that one should be able to find more objective monitors - if one can phrase it that way? For instance a former Republican president.

I would like a monitor who is truely committed to democracy and is not so pathetically anti-American.

[Tripledoc]

So a reasonable monitor would be someone who is pro-american?

[Ned]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Monk, you are absolutely correct, and he wants to buy Russian jet fighters while he does it. The Russians don't support him, but for them business is business. Ned, one-half a good idea. Get OAS to establish and Americas intervention force to intervene in areas of suspect voting - I can see the next headline - Florida invaded by OAS vote monitors.

Shawn, sounds like a plan!

Really, Florida 2000 was a real PAIN. Had Gore simply demanded a state-wide recount with uniform standards for chads, he would have prevailed in his legal battle. Instead, he tried to rig the recounts and eventually both the Florida and the US Supreme Court called him on the unfairness of what he was trying to do.

[Mr. Harley]

Ned - my only real complaint in Florida was the bogus contract to purge felons from the voter lists. That was pretty raw, but we're in danger of high-jacking the thread where I was just joking.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
So a reasonable monitor would be someone who is pro-american?

Anyone who is truly commited to democracy is pro-American.

[Ned]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Ned - my only real complaint in Florida was the bogus contract to purge felons from the voter lists. That was pretty raw, but we're in danger of high-jacking the thread where I was just joking.

Of course shawn. And I agree with you and Che that keeping 90,000 felons from voting denied Gore 90,000 votes.

[Tripledoc]

I see. But is it then not a problem that elements within the opposition recently tried to stage a coup againts Chavez. How does this conform with the standards of democracy?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
I see. But is it then not a problem that elements within the opposition recently tried to stage a coup againts Chavez. How does this conform with the standards of democracy?

Are you a fan of Star Wars?

[Mr. Harley]

Ned, the problem was that a substantial number of innocent people (several thousand) lost their votes, and they were not given any notice that it had happened until they showed up! That's what was raw, plus they structured it using census data so it would not target Hispanics (which did not exist when the data they CHOSE to use was tkaen) and over-targeted blacks. The latter is dirty politics (redundant) the first threatens democracy. They tried to do it again (the Florida Secrectary of State - who is Republican) and FOIA requests forced them to divulge. When they did, they stopped it. "The guilty fleeth..." Again, neither of us can resist that last word bit - but at least I think I'm going to go to bed - or at least I was an hour ago. It's all your fault!

Tripledoc, you are correct. Some elements of the opposition are even less democratic than Chavez (he was democratically elected the first time, at least). The problem is that most of the opposition is democratic, and he is seizing the power of the state using strategems that look like they came out of Germany in the early 1930's.

[Ned]

Shawn, thousands of people lost their votes in Florida due to technicalities? Really??????

Ask the Gore supporters about overseas military whose votes were not counted due to just such technicalities.

[Mr. Harley]

Ned - straw man. Each case (example you cite) was wrong, but in this case the technicality was CREATED via a contract with a private vendor. They also tracked down memos, and the specific intent was to not worry about accidentally denying voters their rite to vote, as over half the people being disenfranchised were black... (obvious demographic understanding necessary here). An expat American tracked down the memos, he works in Britian now, and has actually written a book on it. (also why I loathe the US press - look how little coverage it got - it was OLD news by then).

It's the difference between accident (stupidity, incompetence, et al) and deliberately setting out to do it. This was an explicit attempt to deny genuine voters the right to vote. By the way, it happened in South Dakota to the Lakota from the local Democratic machine, and helped Daschele win the the state (WSJ did excellent documentation on that one) - Lakota got fed up, told the local anti-Lakota machine politicians to go shove it, did a major voter registration drive, kicked out the local machine, and since most were Democrats (local machine does not equal national party) Daschele got reelected. Note I didn't accuse the national Rebuplicans of doing this - it was purely local, the Secretary of State, whatever her name was for sure, and possibly involvement by parts of Jeb Bush's administation, it's been three years since I heard the story.

[Ned]

shawn, was the problem that certain people were on the felons list who were not felons?

[Mr. Harley]

Actually several thousand. The Florida Secretary of State knew it - as I said, the reporter FOI'd the memo's. They also acknowledged it would affect primarily black voters, were aware of it, and did nothing to give people taken off the voter list a chance to even find out what had happened to them. Wrong for the Democrats during Jim Crow, wrong for the Republicans in charge of Florida. I also feel that the NAACP and Democrats were gutless not to force the issue, though some friends have made the point that A) the Supreme Court had already said get on with it essentially and B) the country didn't need even more divisiveness. IMHO, gutless, because that woman whose name escapes me should be barred from public service, as should anybody who took part in the plan. By the way, they tried to do it again this time, and when the new (repeat) plans were revealed via FOI, terminated the plan. That's why I suspect it wasn't just the Secretary of State, she's no longer part of the Jeb Bush administration.

[Ned]

IIRC, the US Civil Rights Commission conducted an investigation and concluded there was no violation.

To repeat, there is a underlying assumption here that felons are Democrats.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Ned


Anyone who is truly commited to democracy is pro-American.

And Americans wonder why they're decried as arrogant.