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I've been thinking about the debate for a while, and I have to say that Edwards secured a much bigger win than I thought last night. It really is remarkable how many lies Cheney trotted out, in comparison to how few lies Edwards trotted out (the only Edwards lie there is, is the $200 billion figure, but Cheney lied about it as well). And this is all playing out on cable news. Combine the Cheney is a big fat liar meme with the more superficial points Edwards scored, and you have a very substantial victory.
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"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon -
I am tired of hearing how concerned Kerry-Edwards are about average Americans. All we heard from Edwards was doom and gloom the whole time, "life sucks", "jobs are leaving", "healthcare sucks", "education sucks" etc. That is all he said.Originally posted by Drachasor
Edwards easily won on looking concerned about everyday Americans and knowing there are problems with the new jobs out there and how families are doing.'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"Comment
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In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes.Edwards, supposedly ignoring his duties
Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Edwards also lied about the economy (jobs lost) and Halliburton. Furthermore, all Edwards said was basically doom and gloom, "Iraq sucks", "the economy sucks", "healthcare sucks", "education sucks". Edwards could not offer a single qualification for being vice-president. His main argument was "well but Bush lied". Come on!Originally posted by Ramo
I've been thinking about the debate for a while, and I have to say that Edwards secured a much bigger win than I thought last night. It really is remarkable how many lies Cheney trotted out, in comparison to how few lies Edwards trotted out (the only Edwards lie there is, is the $200 billion figure, but Cheney lied about it as well). And this is all playing out on cable news. Combine the Cheney is a big fat liar meme with the more superficial points Edwards scored, and you have a very substantial victory.
Cheney clearly won hands down. He was articulate and clear and he rebutted virtually all of the lame attacks Edwards threw his way.'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"Comment
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How did Edwards lie about the economy or Halliburton?"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes.
Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.
Yes, they clearly should've made futile votes against the Republican controlled gov't on the principle of it, or some bull**** like that. This here is a partisan strawman.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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As I just said, regarding Halliburton, Cheney's OWN SOURCE said this:
Cheney got our domain name wrong -- calling us "FactCheck.com" -- and wrongly implied that we had rebutted allegations Edwards was making about what Cheney had done as chief executive officer of Halliburton. In fact, we did post an article pointing out that Cheney hasn't profited personally while in office from Halliburton's Iraq contracts, as falsely implied by a Kerry TV ad. But Edwards was talking about Cheney's responsibility for earlier Halliburton troubles. And in fact, Edwards was mostly right."Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-BokononComment
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I fail to see how Bush's tour of the United States in 2000 helped Texas's infrastructure at all.Originally posted by DanS
In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes.
Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.The two real political parties in America are the Winners and the Losers. The people don't acknowledge this. They claim membership in two imaginary parties, the Republicans and the Democrats, instead." - Kurt Vonnegut Jr. My (crappy) LiveJournalComment
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The difference is that Kerry and Edwards aren't doing their jobs. Me and and all of the other American taxpayers should be reimbursed for services paid for, but not delivered to us.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Is there anything more pointless than the VP debate?
Remember 1988? Bentsen pretty much destroyed Quayle, but did it help Dukakis? Nope.The genesis of the "evil Finn" concept- Evil, evil FinlandComment
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Re:Senate Records
Ramo, I just got up and saw that. I knew Cheney was lying about his record and that of Edward's, but dai-yam. How embarassing.
The cake is NOT a lie. It's so delicious and moist.
The Weighted Companion Cube is cheating on you, that slut.Comment
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Look, you guys can have your own opinions on this, but mark these words:
Polls in a few days will show that Edwards had a much larger impact on undecided voters than Cheney did.
If I am wrong on this, then I'll apologize, but I wager I am quite correct.
While there were mistatements on both sides, overall Cheney erred more than Edwards. On the economy and jobs, Edwards delivered a much more powerful presentation, and overall it wasn't wrong.
The Jobs figure was accurate in a number of ways. While it doesn't account for the number of jobs that have been created, it is the number of jobs lost. It is unfortunate he didn't go into this further, as the newly created jobs have less benefits, less pay, and in many cases less hours than the jobs they replace. The job recovery is very deceptive. I would note that in June when people were trumpeting about new jobs, they missed some very important data: The number of hours worked did not change. What can you conclude when the number of jobs increase and the number of hours doesn't? Full-time jobs are being turned into part-time. Of course, Team Bush doesn't acknowledge any problem, so they won't try to make the job situation better.
As for Haliburton, there is only one thing he was wrong about; they had to be given some sort of contract without a bid, because it was determined no one else could do that job. However, Cheney is still responsible for the bad accounting practices when he was in charge, and Haliburten is indeed under investigation while no money is being withheld as the law demands.
As for the "absence" of the Senators, as I have said before, they had a greater duty. If you somehow think no Senator should ever run for office, then you are flat-out wrong. It is essential that they must miss most of the votes, that's simply how it works. Cheney was hardly ever there too. It is far, far more important to give people a choice in the election than to attend every single vote that is done in the Senate. What is being done this year has always been done, and Kerry and Edwards are no different in this. For you to somehow think Kerry and Edwards shouldn't do their duty to the American people by giving them a real choice in the election, is an grossly unfair and a mischaracterization of how Presidential elections work. This is not an issue that is worth making a big fuss over, and by bringing it up it comes across as people grasping at straws because they don't like how there is a big debate over who should be elected this November.
You might have a legitimate issues with how this has worked in the past and how it is working now, but this isn't a fault you should be pinning on Edwards or Kerry. If you want to argue about how the system is imperfect, then that is another matter. Frankly, it is a tricky situation since Senators cannot give votes while they are away and it is quite possibly even more undemocratic for a governer selected (and not elected) official to replace them.
If you want to argue against the Kerry/Edwards ticket, please do us the curteousy of arguing real issues, not made-up ones that are just distortions.
Oh, and Kerry/Edwards are not "doom and gloom" over the economy. They have a detailed plan on how to deal with the problem, and they see that there *is* a problem. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. Bush and Cheney will not win if they don't even acknowledge the difficulty many Americans are having. Kerry/Edwards acknowledge that difficulty, but far from doom and gloom, they have plans to solve the problem and make life better. To say that advocating solutions to problems is broadcasting "doom and gloom" is a backwards view; it says you can never identify and solve problems, because identifying them is being full of "doom and gloom"; and remember, Bush/Cheney do not think there is a problem.
-Drachasor"If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack ObamaComment
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The fact is that you cannot say you support something and then not even bother to vote for that thing you claim to support so much.Originally posted by Ramo
In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes.
Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.
Yes, they clearly should've made futile votes against the Republican controlled gov't on the principle of it, or some bull**** like that. This here is a partisan strawman.
'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"Comment
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Originally posted by The diplomat
The fact is that you cannot say you support something and then not even bother to vote for that thing you claim to support so much.
So you have to show up to make a losing vote in Washington instead of speaking about the same isue in California, Idaho or Maine. Why??
I'm guessing we could find senators (Repubs or Dems) that missed lots of votes for far less laudable reasons than seeking the presidency.
To me this a non-issue unless you just want to hand elections to incumbents since all sitting senators would be precluded. I'm sure if someone resigned their senate seat to run, there would be a negative spin on that as wellYou don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto LuongoComment
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