Lets ban circumcision (male too)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I love circumcision threads. They always include the following sentiments.

Uncircumcised male- "How dare you suggest I get no sex and my foreskin contains a mature Brie!"

Circumcised male- "How dare you suggest my parents abused me!"

Not just that my parents abused me, but that the state should have prevented that abuse, meaning that for me to reach the state I prefer (my current one) I would have to have undergone a more painful, more risky procedure than the one i in fact underwent.

the anticirc arguments are abstract philosophical ones and DONT address the realities of most men who were circed for religious reasons being happy with that, and many who were prevented from doing so being unhappy with it.

You have to argue that my friend who had an adult circ as a result of Soviet laws was NOT abused by said Soviet laws, despite his own belief that he was.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Geronimo


like I said it depends on where they are from. Try your informal poll in a variety of settings.

Most of them have been in person but one did involve an online poll, with people from Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the UK

I still got the same results.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


er cause it prevents you from having children? See also FGM. Circumcision has no effects like the above.

This is what I find frightening. For you if someone castrated a kid it's sad because now the kid will have to adopt to have children. For me it's sad because this poor kid has been mutilated and violated and will have to live with it forever.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Drogue

It reduces sensitivity. Since it is sensitivity that causes you to be able to procreate, it affects an important function. As well as simple pleasure. Like FGM, but to a much less degree, it reduces your ability to orgasm.

Well, I don't have anything to measure it against, but it's sensitive enough, if you don't have anything to measure it against you don't know what you're missing.

Unless the Doc just like totally slips and takes a hard right.


One interesting thing to consider, when someone gets a sex change operation, they cut you unit in half and shove it up inside you and it becomes a vagina.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drogue

It reduces sensitivity. Since it is sensitivity that causes you to be able to procreate, it affects an important function. As well as simple pleasure. Like FGM, but to a much less degree, it reduces your ability to orgasm.

well then we're back to the arguement over subtle differences in sensation.

As for procreation

"Yeshiva families and Chassidic families typically have seven children or more. They are similar to yeshiva and chassidic families who live in Jerusalem, on whom a study was done by the Jerusalem municipality in February 1993 by Dr. Sara Hershkowitz of the Strategic Planning Department of the Jerusalem Municipality. From a survey she conducted of 750 families who live in the Orthodox neighborhoods of Har Nof, Ezras Torah, Kiryat Sanz, Kiryat Belz and Shikun Chabad (neighborhoods, by the way, with a high percentage of American and European Orthodox Jews), she found the following (p.23):

24% of all families had four children or less

26.5% had 5-6 children.

24.9% had 7-8 children

24.5% had 9 children or more.

In other words, nearly 50% of the Chassidic/yeshiva community in Jerusalem had seven children or more.

Menachem Friedman, a sociologist in Bar Ilan who has written extensively about the chassidic/Yeshiva community, told me that the fertility rate of the strictly Orthodox population in Israel is 7.5 births per family -- almost three times that of the secularists in Israel, whose fertility rate stands at around 2.7 births. (The secularists in Israel, by the way, are doing much better than American Jews, with approximately 1.6 births per woman.)

Mr. Friedman mentions that demographers in Israel have projected that the Orthodox (chareidi) community in Israel will triple within 25 years, reaching close to a million by 2025. Other Orthodox groups in Israel also have a higher than usual fertility rate: the Modern Orthodox/Mizrachi - 3.5 children per family; "Chardal" (Strictly religious National Religious) - 6-7 children.

Mr. Friedman says that a birth rate of 4.7 is required for a community to double itself every generation. If so, it is clear that the strictly Orthodox are more than doubling themselves with each passing generation. The fact is that they have among the highest birth rates in the world."

[Pekka]

Ted, now the real quetion is, why a guy like you and me knows the technical part of the sex change operation?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Where the well is sprouting fallacies, inconsistencies and uncharacteristically flawed assuptions, I may as well merely accelerate the process

And in doing so, sprout your own fallacies. Although where my logical fallacies are I'd love to know.

Originally posted by Whaleboy
It is the parents right to bring up the child with an education of their religion and a statement of that childs past, what they do with that is their business but circumcision is no barrier to them doing so.

It's a permanent reminder of the religion they were forced into. It's done for religious reasons, and it's permanent. That seems to follow. It's not a parents right to force someone into a religion, whichever it is, IMHO. Or to cause irreversable damage in the name of that religion without the childs consent.

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Less risk of STI, less risk of premature ejaculation, easier to keep clean (more hygienic like for like than uncut given same hygiene for both)

Less sensitive, thus higher risk of inability to ejaculate. Less sensitive is making a part of the body less able to do the job it was intended for (copulation).

Originally posted by Whaleboy
I'll spare you the lecture on pubic hair growth shame:

It's so tempting to join you poisoning the well here, but I still have some sense of decency.

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Just like IVF, heart surgery, Caesarian. Artificial vs natural means absolutely nothing, you of all people I'd have thought to be the first proponent of that!

Exactly, but only when it's their choice, or a medical necessity. Leave everything natural until they decide otherwise.

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Plato, Aristotle, Montaigne, Kant, Mill (Sr), Kierkgaarde

Nowadays, smacking and discapline isn't seen as the be all and end all of raising a child. It used to be. I think we're better off now.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I wasnt speaking of fertility wrt FGM, but ability to receive sexual pleasure,

Any reduced sensitivity in the penis after circumcision isn't reducing your ability to relieve sexual pleasure? I agree, to a completely different degree, but if reducing pleasure is bad, circumcision has bad effects.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Geronimo


This is what I find frightening. For you if someone castrated a kid it's sad because now the kid will have to adopt to have children. For me it's sad because this poor kid has been mutilated and violated and will have to live with it forever. [/QUOTE

Its MUTILATION AND VIOLATION BECAUSE it takes away funtionality.

er, in my country parents have their little girls ears pierced at age 3. Not something I would do, but to describe it has as mutilation and violation would be seen as most as a sign of someone who needs to chill a bit.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
the anticirc arguments are abstract philosophical ones

Wow. I never realised "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" was abstract philosophy.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Not just that my parents abused me, but that the state should have prevented that abuse, meaning that for me to reach the state I prefer (my current one) I would have to have undergone a more painful, more risky procedure than the one i in fact underwent.

the anticirc arguments are abstract philosophical ones and DONT address the realities of most men who were circed for religious reasons being happy with that, and many who were prevented from doing so being unhappy with it.

You have to argue that my friend who had an adult circ as a result of Soviet laws was NOT abused by said Soviet laws, despite his own belief that he was.

If the state won't prevent it how will the victim prevent it? I don't care if the state doesnt prevent, say spanking, since at least one day I'll grow up and the spanking will end. circumcison will *never* end however. The state needs to intervene when there will be no chance for the individual to ever protect their rights themselves later on as an adult.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Drogue

Any reduced sensitivity in the penis after circumcision isn't reducing your ability to relieve sexual pleasure? I agree, to a completely different degree, but if reducing pleasure is bad, circumcision has bad effects.

not having been the other way since i was 8 days old, i cant really say from personal experience Undoubtedly less consequences to personal pleasure than some men who were raised to think sex is sinful, yet no one proposes banning that IIUC recent studies suggest no loss of pleasure at all. Yet with essentially anecdotal evidence of a subtle change, you would impose the state over the rights of parents.

[Asher]

Circumcision was introduced to discourage masturbation. Which means the people who decided this determined t provided significantly less stimulation.

Period.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


Wow. I never realised "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" was abstract philosophy.

It aint broke. The current system is fine. Folks here want to impose the state over the family, a radical "fix". In the case I know where it was tried, in the USSR, it created great unhappiness.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Pekka
Ted, now the real quetion is, why a guy like you and me knows the technical part of the sex change operation?

Ted Striker has many areas of knowledge.