John Kerry the Betrayer: Unfit to Command, part 3

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap

No, it does not bear holding a grudge- anymore than some German soldier who languished for nearly a decade in the Soviet gulags should bear a grudge at his fellow countrymen who did not support the invasion of the SU.

WOW! I hadn't realized there was an equivalent to HERR Kerry postulating in front of the Reichstag. You wouldn't happen to have a transcript of his seach would you?

If so I imagine, it prolly goes something like this:

Herr Kerry: I am here to tell you that my brothers in arms have committed atrocities and war crimes. I have seen..............

SS Guardsman: BANG! POW!

Chairman: Next we will be hearing from the Jewish delegation.



Summation: No aid or comfort translated to the Soviets, hence no opportunity to make such a claim.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap

John Kerry did the right thing by speaking out against a war he saw as damaging to the US. Too bad these men thought wrongly he owed them anything more than respect. Hopefully they can get over their hangup some day, because if they don;t, they will die embittered men.

John Kerry did more than speak out against the war. He smeared our troops in Vietnam, damaged their reputation among the American people and certainly damaged America's reputation and standing among the populations of the world.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


That "only difference" is the one difference that counts. hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqios are dead due to the incompetence of this admin. in running the campaign post the fall of Baghdad. That is reason alone to kick out Bush and his whole rotten team- without even going into the massive domestic shennanigans.

Proof? Just what would carry have done different than Bush? Not disband the Iraqi army? Send in on 100,000 more American troops -- where we get them? Send in the French? They don't have 100,000 troops -- Not even if you added the Germans.

Besides, at no time did the American commanders on the ground request more troops. Bush all along said that he would give the commanders on the ground anything and everything they asked for to get the job done. The problem is, they did not ask for more troops.

Pathetic. Pure politics.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ned its better to send them in sans body armor.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned


John Kerry did more than speak out against the war. He smeared our troops in Vietnam, damaged their reputation among the American people and certainly damaged America's reputation and standing among the populations of the world.

Oh? There I was thinking illegally bombing Cambodia and little incidents like My Lai might have done that, Ned.


'Soon the killing began. The first victim was a man stabbed in the back with a bayonet. Then a middle-aged man was picked up, thrown down a well, and a grenade lobbed in after him. A group of fifteen to twenty mostly older women were gathered around a temple, kneeling and praying. They were all executed with shots to the back of their heads. Eighty or so villagers were taken from their homes and herded to the plaza area. As many cried "No VC! No VC!", Calley told soldier Paul Meadlo, "You know what I want you to do with them". When Calley returned ten minutes later and found the Vietnamese still gathered in the plaza he reportedly said to Meadlo, "Haven't you got rid of them yet? I want them dead. Waste them." Meadlo and Calley began firing into the group from a distance of ten to fifteen feet. The few that survived did so because they were covered by the bodies of those less fortunate.

What Captain Medina knew of these war crimes is not certain. It was a chaotic operation. Gary Garfolo said, "I could hear shooting all the time. Medina was running back and forth everywhere. This wasn't no organized deal." Medina would later testify that he didn't enter the village until 10 a.m., after most of the shooting had stopped, and did not personally witness a single civilian being killed. Others put Medina in the village closer to 9 a.m., and close to the scene of many of the murders as they were happening.

As the third platoon moved into My Lai, it was followed by army photographer Ronald Haeberle, there to document what was supposed to be a significant encounter with a crack enemy battalion. Haeberle took many pictures [HAEBERLE PHOTOS]. He said he saw about thirty different GIs kill about 100 civilians. Once Haeberle focused his camera on a young child about five feet away, but before he could get his picture the kid was blown away. He angered some GIs as he tried to photograph them as they fondled the breasts of a fifteen-year-old Vietnamese girl. '


My Lai, Ned.


1968, Ned.


Nine

teen

sixty

eight.


'Two tragedies took place in 1968 in Viet Nam. One was the massacre by United States soldiers of as many as 500 unarmed civilians-- old men, women, children-- in My Lai on the morning of March 16. The other was the cover-up of that massacre. '

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

'When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public. '

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html

So was Kerry dividing the American public before he went to Viet Nam, during his tour of duty, and when he came back?


'Word of the massacre did not reach the American public until November of 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with ex-GI and Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.

As the gruesome details of the massacre reached the American public serious questions arose concerning the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. A military commission investigating the My Lai massacre found widespread failures of leadership, discipline, and morale among the Army's fighting units. As the war progressed, many "career" soldiers had either been rotated out or retired. Many more had died. In their place were scores of draftees whose fitness for leadership in the field of battle was questionable at best. Military officials blamed inequities in the draft policy for the often slim talent pool from which they were forced to choose leaders.

Many maintained that if the educated middle class ("the Harvards," as they were called) had joined in the fight, a man of Lt. William Calley's emotional and intellectual stature would never have been issuing orders. '


The Harvards, Ned? Who might they be?


People protecting Alabama from covert Viet Cong shrimp boat operations, perhaps?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Cruddy


But... he fought as hard as he could AGAINST the war as he did for it.

Doesn't that show some moral character?

Yes, US troops were hurt, tortured and killed in the Hanoi H.

But... that was policy. War was never declared, and so "standards" did not have to be maintained.

Put it another way - would you have rather he did nothing? That the war was allowed to continue because nobody actually cared?

It may smack of treachery when a soldier says "this war is wrong" - but from my angle, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO...

Cruddy, with the election the Richard Nixon in 1968, the American people recognized that we had to do something different, radically different, in Vietnam. he was elected not to win the war, but to end it with honor as Eisenhower ended the Korean War with honor.

Democrats often spin the story that Nixon was trying to "win" the war Vietnam. However from the very beginning, Nixon sought peace -- peace with honor. He also initiated the Vietnamization program, which would allow us to withdraw troops even while he negotiated with the North.

Nixon's strategy ultimately worked, but the reason it took four years to work was because of the antiwar movement in United States and, most particularly, because of John Kerry. John Kerry is personally responsible for extending the war, piling up American and Vietnamese casualties and extending the torture of American POWs in North Vietnam because the North consistently stated that all they had to do was wait and Congress would force a unilateral withdrawal. They did not negotiate a peace treaty until after the election of Richard Nixon to a second term.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap

Nixon lost the home front when his lie about Cambodia came out, and after events like at Kent State.

This is a sad joke. The antiwar movement never, ever, gave Nixon any backing. They continued to insist on immediate, unilateral withdrawal of American forces. They opposed Nixon at every step.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Mad Bomber


No. The republican economic record has been horible for twenty-five years. People wake up!!! Tickle down economics is patently false. Regan practically destroyed our economy in the early 1980's (unemplyment was in double digits until early 1983) and their lazze-fair approach to government at times borders on criminal. Bush Jr has only intensified a Republican agenda that has been in place since the Nixon administration (of which most of Jr's advisors, including Cheaney and Rove, belonged to)

Mad Bomber, you are living in propaganda land.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


WOW! I hadn't realized there was an equivalent to HERR Kerry postulating in front of the Reichstag. You wouldn't happen to have a transcript of his seach would you?

If so I imagine, it prolly goes something like this:

Herr Kerry: I am here to tell you that my brothers in arms have committed atrocities and war crimes. I have seen..............

SS Guardsman: BANG! POW!

Chairman: Next we will be hearing from the Jewish delegation.



Summation: No aid or comfort translated to the Soviets, hence no opportunity to make such a claim.

Right, cause the Soviets would only keep someone in the gulag cause a German accused his own people of war crimes- its not like the very acts on the ground would give the other side a reason to make such claims?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ned


This is a sad joke. The antiwar movement never, ever, gave Nixon any backing. They continued to insist on immediate, unilateral withdrawal of American forces. They opposed Nixon at every step.

Yes, but you miss the fact that protests widened after Cambodia and the Pentagon Papers- the anti-war movement always opposed Nixon in Vietnam, and they GOT STRONGER thanks to Nixon's actions.

[Ned]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Oh? There I was thinking illegally bombing Cambodia and little incidents like My Lai might have done that, Ned.

Nothing was illegal about Cambodia. Secret yes, but for a reason. We did not want to "embarrass" the cooperating government of Cambodia.

Mi Lai certainly hurt since the officers involved blamed their superiors just like the guards have done in the current scandal involving Abu Ghraib.

However, it was not American policy to deliberately kill, torture or maim civilians -- as Kerry charged. Kerry's testimony severely damaged America, as I stated.

[Ned]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, but you miss the fact that protests widened after Cambodia and the Pentagon Papers- the anti-war movement always opposed Nixon in Vietnam, and they GOT STRONGER thanks to Nixon's actions.

Bull.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned


Cruddy, with the election the Richard Nixon in 1968, the American people recognized that we had to do something different, radically different, in Vietnam. he was elected not to win the war, but to end it with honor.

'1969

Nixon Begins Secret Bombing of Cambodia:

In an effort to destroy Communist supply routes and base camps in Cambodia, President Nixon gives the go-ahead to "Operation Breakfast." The covert bombing of Cambodia, conducted without the knowledge of Congress or the American public, will continue for fourteen months. '

Four years later:


'1973

Hearings on Secret Bombings Begin:

The Senate Armed Services Committee opens hearing on the US bombing of Cambodia. Allegations are made that the Nixon administration allowed bombing raids to be carried out during what was supposed to be a time when Cambodia's neutrality was officially recognized. As a result of the hearings, Congress orders that all bombing in Cambodia cease effective at midnight, August 14. '

From the P.B.S. Viet Nam timeline.


I'm curious Ned- how honourable is it to bomb a neutral country?


Now with regard to peace talks- when were the Paris peace talks meant to begin, Ned?

During which Presidency?

And which Republican candidate for President seems to have helped scupper those peace talks?

[Ramo]

Interesting that you just posted that Neddie.

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon (news - web sites)'s most senior civilian and military officials share a portion of blame for creating conditions that led to the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq (news - web sites), according to a new report.

The report, by a commission appointed by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, was briefing Rumsfeld on its findings and recommendations Tuesday in advance of a Pentagon news conference to release the details. The commission was headed by James Schlesinger, a former secretary of defense.

A person familiar with the report said it implicitly faulted Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by finding that those responsible for the military prison system in Iraq were operating under confusing policies on allowable interrogation techniques. The person discussed some aspects of the report on condition of anonymity.

Also faulted is Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who was the top field commander in Iraq at the time of the reported abuses last fall.

Sanchez also takes a portion of the blame in a separate Army investigation which looked specifically at the role of military intelligence soldiers. That probe has been completed and is expected to be publicly released as early as Wednesday.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan, with President Bush (news - web sites) at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas, had no immediate comment on the Schlesinger report.

"I think we'll wait until we see the full report," McClellan said. "I fully expect the president will be briefed on any and all reports from these investigations."

The Army report, initially headed by Maj. Gen. George Fay, says at least two dozen lower-ranking military intelligence soldiers, as well as civilian contractors, were responsible for the abuses, which were depicted in photographs and videos taken by U.S. soldiers.

The New York Times said in Tuesday editions the report also blames Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski — commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade at Abu Ghraib — for faulty leadership. She has been faulted in other investigation reports but has denied knowing about any abuses until they become public.

The Schlesinger commission interviewed Rumsfeld twice during its investigation, which began in May. The three other commission members are former defense secretary Harold Brown, former Republican Rep. Tillie Fowler of Florida, and retired Air Force Gen. Charles Horner.

When he chartered the commission, Rumsfeld told its members that he wanted independent advice on a wide range of issues related to the abuse allegations. "I am especially interested in your views on the cause of the problems and what should be done to fix them," he wrote at the time.

Fay's investigation concluded that Sanchez failed to deal with rising problems at the prison as he tried to manage 150,000 troops countering an unexpected insurgency. But Sanchez will not be recommended for any punitive action or even a letter of reprimand, a Pentagon official told the Washington Post.

The Army report also says soldiers used police dogs to intimidate Iraqi detainees as young as 15, the Post said.

Handlers have told investigators that the use of unmuzzled military police dogs was sanctioned by top military intelligence officers. But the new report will show that MPs were using their animals to threaten detainees as part of an unusual competition among themselves — not in accordance with intelligence officers — the Post reported, citing a Pentagon source.

Both reports will be reviewed by the Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) in hearings scheduled for Sept. 9.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040824/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/iraq_prisoner_abuse_4

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ned


Nothing was illegal about Cambodia. Secret yes, but for a reason. We did not want to "embarrass" the cooperating government of Cambodia.

However, it was not American policy to deliberately kill, torture or maim civilians -- as Kerry charged. Kerry's testimony severely damaged America, as I stated.

So Ned, bombing neutral countries without the consent of Congress or the American people is o.k. with you?


Should any 'neutrals' in the vicinity of Iraq and Afghanistan be evacuating their civilian populations?


Now as to not deliberately killing civilians- if you drop more bombs on a country than you did, on, oh, Japan, in the course of WWII, how many civilians will those bombs not kill?

Will they not kill the estimated 600 000 Cambodian civilians unfortunate enough to have been under those bombs?

'
May-August 1973

Months after the Paris Agreement, which marked the official end of the Vietnam War, the United States, under the leadership of President Richard Nixon and his assistant for National Security Affairs Henry Kissinger, steps up its bombing of Cambodia—contradicting earlier claims that the rationale for bombing Cambodia had been to protect American lives in Vietnam. During the months of March, April and May, the tonnage of bombs dropped on Cambodia is more than twice that of the entire previous year. The bombing stops in August under pressure from Congress. The total number of civilians killed since the bombing began in 1969 is estimated to be 600,000 (see March 1969-1973). [Blum, 1995; Guardian, 4/25/2002] '

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=cambodia

C'mon, Ned, trying to do a snowjob on King Richard is just too much, even for you.