John Kerry the Betrayer: Unfit to Command, part 3

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Cruddy
Yes, so what?

One contender stood up and was counted as against the war.

The other stuck his head in the sand and did not serve in any capacity except feathering his own nest.

No contest. One of them has a set of testicles, the other has a calculator and portfolio where his soul should be.

He was on record in both votes and speeches pre invasion as being strongly in support of the war. Only after Dean made in-roads did he backpedal as he saw a vulnerability.

The only candidates who could legitamitely be described as anti-war were Kucinich, Dean, and Nader. Certainly not Kerry much as his fringe left base would like to imagine (and be sorely dissapointed in).

What makes the situtation worse is he didn't have the cahoneys to defend his earlier positions but instead nuanced.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


He has since come out to say that he would have engaged in war against Sadaam even knowing what he knows today. (at least that is his latest story)

This means for all intents and purposes they share teh same vision wrt Iraq. The only difference being in the implementation. Which is still a significant point although truth be told I really can't definitively describe significant difference there as well.

That "only difference" is the one difference that counts. hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqios are dead due to the incompetence of this admin. in running the campaign post the fall of Baghdad. That is reason alone to kick out Bush and his whole rotten team- without even going into the massive domestic shennanigans.

[Cruddy]

Yes, but I don't see a contradiction here.

Being in favour of invading Iraq and changing your mind about Vietnam after serving there... what's the problem?

I think I'll leave it there. The more I get told about this election the less I understand it.

[Patroklos]

I have said that I respect Kerry for going to war to fight and perhaps die to defend his ideals.

That having been said a man is the sum of his entire life, he can make up for wrongs and he can compound them. And some just damn him. Writing false citations is not unique to him, but it is a hit. Coming back from the war and saying those outragious, false, and well stupid things is unforgivable. ESPECSIALLY if you try and use your status as self declared "war criminal" as a bonus later in life. Sorry Cruddy, Kerry's net war veteran worth is in the negatives all considered.

Bush, well, I don't give him any points for his national guard service. Not because I have anything against the NG, but because I admit that it was shaddy. But it isn't like he ran to Canada and then talked **** behind our backs like some other president we know. Nor did any of Bush's wartime actions hurt America or give him traitor stauts. Kerry will never live down his shame, at least to military voters and their families, which is a significant voting power.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ming
What about Fahrenheit 9/11 by Michael Moore. It's a full length movie timed to hurt Bush's re-election chances... Isn't that worse than just an Ad? And while they didn't fund the movie, they did feature Moore at their Convention... So if you are going to whine about the ads... at least whine at both sides

No, it isn't, because people have to pay to see it, as opposed to having it hoisted upon them like and ad. And so the democrats had Moore come to their convention- wow, what a shocker, an anti-Bush celeb! Why, how dare the democracts do that! I mean, I am sure the repugs will have NO celebrities at their convention!!!



Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

[Patroklos]

hundreds of American servicemen and thousands of Iraqios are dead

Since when did you give a damn about that, less of us to vote against your idiocies.

Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap


What a pathetic ad. Ohhh, you felt bad about protesters-well, why the **** should I care?

The thing is, this ad much better exemplifies the reason for this campaign- men stuck in 1971 reliving their nightmares, but more importantly, thinking that their sacrifice somehow had to be lauded by the people. It didn't.

I generally do feel sad for these guys-thinking that the validation for their sufferings had to come from strangers and outsiders. Why? The people owed them respect, but thats it They did not owe them anything else. To think people should not have stated the truth as they saw it becuase men were being held prisoners of war is absurd beyond belief- it is a perversion of democracy, which is the ability to change policy even in the worse of times-perhaps specially there.

John Kerry did the right thing by speaking out against a war he saw as damaging to the US. Too bad these men thought wrongly he owed them anything more than respect. Hopefully they can get over their hangup some day, because if they don;t, they will die embittered men.

If anyone has a gripe it is the POW's (Which makes McCain's friendship with Kerry all teh more puzzling). Like it or not it is not public apporval the POWS were craving, but freedom. Given the thought process that in the military "We leave no man behind" the acts he engaged were designed to exit the war ASAP and be damned with the POW's. Thus a direct betrayal of the POWs. (I heard you argue that Nixon had no strategy, but buy 71 it surely had become) Nixons strategy was an exit with honor one which meant he needed to get the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table which they were unwilling to do in light of their impression of the US homefront. Acts such as Kerry's IMO undermined that effort and therefor casued needless death and suffering. If you recall correctly, the biggest bone of contention in the talks was release of the POW's as the North Vietnamese had branded them war criminals not POWS.

If you don't think that bears holding a grudge for 33 years your sorely mistaken.

[Patroklos]

Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

No, that is you seeing your positioned owned, and whining about it.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I have said that I respect Kerry for going to war to fight and perhaps die to defend his ideals.

That having been said a man is the sum of his entire life, he can make up for wrongs and he can compound them. And some just damn him. Writing false citations is not unique to him, but it is a hit. Coming back from the war and saying those outragious, false, and well stupid things is unforgivable. ESPECSIALLY if you try and use your status as self declared "war criminal" as a bonus later in life. Sorry Cruddy, Kerry's net war veteran worth is in the negatives all considered.

But... he fought as hard as he could AGAINST the war as he did for it.

Doesn't that show some moral character?

Yes, US troops were hurt, tortured and killed in the Hanoi H.

But... that was policy. War was never declared, and so "standards" did not have to be maintained.

Put it another way - would you have rather he did nothing? That the war was allowed to continue because nobody actually cared?

It may smack of treachery when a soldier says "this war is wrong" - but from my angle, it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos


Since when did you give a damn about that, less of us to vote against your idiocies.

Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

yes, his support is not common- given how low it is, how high his negatives are, all after just 3 years since having sky high approvals.

I guess being out at sea so much lets the sea salt melt brains

[Patroklos]

Troll that need not polute the discussion, so deleted

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
No, it isn't, because people have to pay to see it, as opposed to having it hoisted upon them like and ad. And so the democrats had Moore come to their convention- wow, what a shocker, an anti-Bush celeb! Why, how dare the democracts do that! I mean, I am sure the repugs will have NO celebrities at their convention!!!

Please, Gepap, you're better than that. You know very well F911 is a publicity stunt that directly profited Kerry. It was an internationally broadcasted, hugely successful negative campaigning against Bush.

And it did blatantly benefit Kerry. That was part of the campaign against Bush, and there's a reason Moore is closer and closer with the Dems, while being further and further from Nader.

Comparing ads from one 527 to another, that is sensible. Comparing them to F9/11? Thats just whinning that the right's sad attampts at documentaries and so forth have failed to gain any public acknowledgement.

No it's not.
Ming used an "independent" campaign tool he was sure I'd know. And he was right using that example.

[Patroklos]

Amazing how amongst the people who are hurt most by the admins "mistake," Bush enjoys uncommon support. Not like any of your lives have changed in any way.

:sigh:

Okay, I will hold your hand. MILITARY VOTERS.

Its alright, like I said you are having a bad day.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


If anyone has a gripe it is the POW's (Which makes McCain's friendship with Kerry all teh more puzzling). Like it or not it is not public apporval the POWS were craving, but freedom. Given the thought process that in the military "We leave no man behind" the acts he engaged were designed to exit the war ASAP and be damned with the POW's. Thus a direct betrayal of the POWs. (I heard you argue that Nixon had no strategy, but buy 71 it surely had become) Nixons strategy was an exit with honor one which meant he needed to get the North Vietnamese to the bargaining table which they were unwilling to do in light of their impression of the US homefront. Acts such as Kerry's IMO undermined that effort and therefor casued needless death and suffering. If you recall correctly, the biggest bone of contention in the talks was release of the POW's as the North Vietnamese had branded them war criminals not POWS.

Wait, you mean like we play games classifying war prisoners? And the sad fact is the Norht Koreans had as good a standing as we did for such games.

But I mean, horrid commies! They only did that thanks to John Kerry!

Nixon lost the home front when his lie about Cambodia came out, and after events like at Kent State.

If you don't think that bears holding a grudge for 33 years your sorely mistaken.

No, it does not bear holding a grudge- anymore than some German soldier who languished for nearly a decade in the Soviet gulags should bear a grudge at his fellow countrymen who did not support the invasion of the SU.

[Patroklos]

I guess being out at sea so much lets the sea salt melt brains

No (well maybe a little), but what it does do is make you owe me your life, liberty, and freedom. I don't need your respect