Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[Velociryx]

For christ sake, take the answer I give you and debate that. Stop insisting that I'm being dishonest.

I would dearly love to, Kid. 'cept that your answer changes hour to hour. That makes it a shade problematic.

-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Do you believe in the military draft under any circumstance?

Personally nope. The cause should be sufficient that people are willing to volunteer.

[Agathon]

Undrstood-- and again I agree. But scientific facts are discoverable.

What about mathematical facts?

What about the fact that you love your girl?

What about the experience of hearing Beethoven's C#Minor quartet?

Are these any less real because they are not empirically discoverable?

If a competent adult shoots another person dead for no other reason than he was curious to see that person die, it is fair that that person should be punished

Exactly. This is how ethics works. You find something that almost everyone agrees upon and extrapolate principles from that, testing them against other things that everyone agrees upon. This is what we do in moral argument. It is a practice, with its own expectations and standards just like any other practice.

[Velociryx]

Ag - we're still speaking different languages. you're saying yes...a tyrant CAN stumble in (or even do it intentionally) and make a fair and just law.

I'm saying it doesn't matter that it CAN happen. That is irrelevant.

What matters is how much control those living under the "Fairness" have in modifying it.

If the only recourse of your system is to kill the people at the top...you don't see that as problematic?

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

Kid is proposing very different concepts of fairness than the ones I accept.

Sure. Our general theories of justice tend to diverge because they are usually just rules of thumb rather than being fully worked out theories.

I would say a good starting point for an ethical theory would be this:

Can you honestly say that your welfare matters more than anyone else's from the moral point of view?

Can a third person honestly say that your welfare matters more than someone else's from the moral point of view?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
If a competent adult shoots another person dead for no other reason than he was curious to see that person die, it is fair that that person should be punished.

The murderer may claim that murder is fair. Why? Because he faces punishment. Murder is not fair though, is it?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Agathon


OK - but what is your moral justification for doing so? It's one thing to say, I don't like it, therefore I am going to revolt, and another to give moral reasons for revolution.

I need a moral justification for free speech? Thats all I am proposing here. If the majority was content, truly content, I would live within the system while never stopping trying to change people's minds.

I believe in democracy far more than I believe in capitalism. I would be vocal to fight against the loss of capitalism. I would bear arms only to protect democracy.

[Agathon]

What matters is how much control those living under the "Fairness" have in modifying it.

But this is irrelevant to the justice of the law. If the law is something they would have agreed to anyway, what case would they have?

You need to show that there is some added value to a law that is enacted by consent over the same law enacted by the tyrant. It's the same law in both cases and has the same effects..

What's the moral difference?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


Personally nope. The cause should be sufficient that people are willing to volunteer.

Do you not see that there are some people who will not volunteer so that others can go and pay the price for their freedom?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I would dearly love to, Kid. 'cept that your answer changes hour to hour. That makes it a shade problematic.

-=Vel=-

That's a load of bull hockey. I changed my mind once, and I acknowledged it.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Do you not see that there are some people who will not volunteer so that others can go and pay the price for their freedom?

Sure and

again free choice.

[Velociryx]

Ag - Doesn't matter.

That one is imposed upon them and one was freely chosen makes all the difference in the world.

The ACT of the imposition itself is immoral. Even if it is for their own "good." You see...we are not children. We are adults. We have free will.

To repress mine for the sake of your version of "fair" and to leave me no recourse but to kill you to prevent its impact on me....that is an unacceptable methodology to me, and I would resist it MOST ardently, I assure you.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

That's a load of bull hockey. I changed my mind once, and I acknowledged it.

You sure you want to go there?

I'm asking once...just to be sure.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Spiff....that was for you....

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber


Sure and

again free choice.

I've just demonstrated to you that it is unfair, because the most heroic will go and die, while the selfish will live. Free choice or not, you call this fair.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
That's a load of bull hockey. I changed my mind once, and I acknowledged it.

You sure you want to go there?

I'm asking once...just to be sure.

-=Vel=-

EDIT: Spiff....that was for you....

Have you been on drugs for three days or something. Honestly, you are not yourself. I've never known you to be this ridiculous.