Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[Velociryx]

Most definitely. You giving me the green light, Ag?

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

Why is this absurd? If fairness can, in fact, be dictated, then by your own definition, this is perfectly acceptable.

I said that it must be dictated, not that it can be dictated. No society can operate without rules. Even a democracy has rules about the way that the power to change the rules of the economy will be organized.

If everyone just individually "decided" what was fair, anarchy would result. That's why we have a democracy, so that the state can enforce the will of the people and remove such conflicts by enforcing a democratically approved rules. But it so happens that the democratic system itself embodies norms of fairness or justice (i.e. voting is the "right" way of solving these conflicts).

No matter what sort of government you imagine, it will have to dictate conceptions of fairness to individuals who don't want it. If said individuals act deviantly, they are called criminals and the full force of the state is brought upon them. This goes for Libertarians, democrats, communists, monarchists, etc.

Whining that the government makes you obey rules of fairness is silly. That's the point of a government. In a democracy, if you don't like the government, you can change it. But if you go so far as to change it to a fascist state, you have violated democratic rules of fairness and replaced them with fascist rules.

I don't think it could be any clearer.

[Spiffor]

Agathon:
Please do not open the can of worms that is history.

Just like we Commies have made terrible mistakes in our history, which we don't want to repeat (I don't think I need to list them here), the Capitalists can also disagree with the dark side of their past.

In modern capitalist democracies, Communist factions are generally hindered by other ways than violence. If you use the 19th century violence as an argument against capitalism, you justify Vel et al. to use Stalin as an argument against Communism.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Most definitely. You giving me the green light, Ag?

-=Vel=-

You can say what you like, but it won't make a difference since the Poly Commies do not agree with some of the things that past peoples' calling themselves "communists" have done. No more than some people who call themselves "capitalists" would necessarily agree with the activities of the "capitalists" in that picture.

Spiff made this point to you two pages ago and you still don't get it. That's why none of us take you seriously.

[Spiffor]

BTW, to explain my motivation with my my previous post (avoiding the use of the historic can of worms):

Historical arguments is not something I fear, since none of them disproves my own utopia. They discredit a societal choice that I myself am opposing (totalitarianism).

I just don't want this thread to be full of useless noise, akin to "-You Stalinist! -You Starver of the people!"

[Velociryx]

I believe you are quite mistaken there. I believe you do take me seriously. (Well, maybe not you specifically, but Monk, Spiff, and others--they'll be quick to tell me if I am wrong on this, so we'll see).

IMO, that was why they commented as they did, and why I am making more of an effort to constrain my emotionality on the topic at hand. And by the way....take the advice of your Comrade....don't give me the green light.

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

I believe you are quite mistaken there. I believe you do take me seriously

Then why did you fall for such an obvious ploy, given what Spiffor has been saying?

[Velociryx]

And what "obvious ploy" do you believe I have fallen for?

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

You seemed ready to offer historical examples as a means of refutation, despite my own rejection of that strategy in previous posts.

Did you not think it odd that I was doing the very thing that I said was irrelevant? Apparently not, you just wanted to dive right in, which seems to show you haven't been listening to anything that any of us have been saying.

[Velociryx]

Then by your own words, you are proved mistaken, as I did not "dive right in" but rather, asked if you were certain YOU wanted to "go there" before *I* proceeded.

So perhaps not such the imbecil you paint me as after all?



-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I just don't want this thread to be full of useless noise, akin to "-You Stalinist! -You Starver of the people!"

But on some level that is true, since we are so overwhelmingly right, and they are so overwhelmingly ignorant and evil.

[Agathon]

Then by your own words, you are proved mistaken, as I did not "dive right in" but rather, asked if you were certain YOU wanted to "go there" before *I* proceeded.

Hardly, someone on the ball would have remembered previous comments.

[Velociryx]

I did remember, Ag. Which was the purpose behind the question. And the reminder to YOU...in case you had forgotten...

-=Vel=-

(wow...THIS exchange is constructive, isn't it? )

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Agathon
But on some level that is true, since we are so overwhelmingly right, and they are so overwhelmingly ignorant and evil.

[Agathon]

Sure you did, since you ignored the point for the three previous pages.

But you still haven't acknowledged that your comments on fairness are in smoking ruins.