NJ Governor resigning right now

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
I see now,

Bravery equates to intelligence.

If one is smart enough to see that the fight is nonwinnable soon enough, then one is brave by not fighting.

OTOH, If one is unwise enough to attempt to fight the inevitable then one is a coward.

Finally, some would argue Clinton was brave to fight the good fight against the evil vindictive repubs.

Got it.

You're saying Nixon was stupid? I don't think he was, just corrupt and sleazy and, well, evil. We know for a fact he clung on to power until it was made clear to him by his own friends that he had no hope of overcoming an impeachment trial. How does that make him brave?

Had Nixon done the same path as McGreevey, I'd give him some marks for courage. Had, when the scandal broke, he had fessed up and stepped down, sure, I'd say he acted with some bravery. But he did nothing of the kind and put the country through the wringer to delay the inevitable. No, Nixon wasn't stupid, he was just power-hungry.

McGreevey's political future was by no means assuredly defunct, as far as we know. Even moreso not to the degree that he would be unable to finish his term. I'm sure many people, had they been his position (like Nixon, Clinton), would have clung on longer and tried to fight it, draggin the state through the mud.

So, Ogie, were McGreevey's reasonings as he stated instead of out of political cowardice, would appearances be any different? If not, isn't your harping on it just, oh, politically-motivated speculation? Seems so!

[Imran Siddiqui]

because McGreevey headed it off before the scandal broke and took a pretty swift step to neutralize the worst political fallout

Well, only if you think the real scandal was his sexual preference . I think the REAL scandal here was the corruption investigation against him and his staff. Two, I believe, have gone to jail (both of obstruction of justice if I'm not mistaken), and apparently the feds were hot on the heels of McGreevey.

I guess this is one of the few times in history when saying you're gay may be the easy way out (well, if the Feds decide not to push the corruption investigation now that he's out of office).

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe

As to your point regarding the straight man who marries someone of the opposite gender for political reasons, I find that repugnant as well. Assuming you feel the same, how can you vote for Kerry?

Because we have a lying, deceiving, corrupted, bigoted, religious right-wing connected president in the White House right now.


That's how I can vote for Kerry -- besides the other fact that Kerry actually has good qualifications.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You're saying Nixon was stupid? I don't think he was, just corrupt and sleazy and, well, evil. We know for a fact he clung on to power until it was made clear to him by his own friends that he had no hope of overcoming an impeachment trial.

Isn't that by definition a gross overestimation of his position and hence a stupid one in this instance.

McGreevey's political future was by no means assuredly defunct, as far as we know. Even moreso not to the degree that he would be unable to finish his term. I'm sure many people, had they been his position (like Nixon, Clinton), would have clung on longer and tried to fight it, draggin the state through the mud.

Rest assured this was not a decision made in a vaccuum. I can almost guarantee advisors on state and national level weighed in on the matter. And very likely in their opinion the situation was likely untenable. Also rest assure the decision to resign was not done for the greater good of the residents of NJ but again IMO the greater good of the Dem party.

If not, isn't your harping on it just, oh, politically-motivated speculation? Seems so!

No arguement. The indulgence of political speculation is party and parcel for these forums, no?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Well, only if you think the real scandal was his sexual preference . I think the REAL scandal here was the corruption investigation against him and his staff.

It might be that that is the case, but until there's solid evidence to the contrary, I'm willing to take McGreevey at his word wrt to why he is resigning. After all, the scandals have been around for months, but he hasn't moved. I'm willing to bet that the whole reason his lover was put into the security post was out of a similar form of blackmail (which is distressing enough, actually), so it's conceivable he could have had the "I'm gay!" out well before this instance.

But again, if he's really resigning because he wants to deal with his personal problems instead of being Governor, would it appear any different? I don't think it would, and people are going to second-guess the reasons regardless.

[Imran Siddiqui]

It might be that that is the case, but until there's solid evidence to the contrary, I'm willing to take McGreevey at his word wrt to why he is resigning.

But his reason really is veiled. He's resigning not to allow the Governorship of NJ be attacked or dragged through mud (paraphrasing, of course). That can mean a lot of things.

I don't think that resigning because he had a gay affair really passes the smell test. Clinton had an affair and survived, and NJ is a fairly liberal state and wouldn't go all nuts on a homosexual governor. It could be because he was going to get sued by Cipel (ties to the corruption), but that exactly wasn't why he said he was resigning (though it could fit in where he doesn't want the office to be attacked).

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Isn't that by definition a gross overestimation of his position and hence a stupid one in this instance.

Overestimation != stupid. At the point where Nixon was compared to where McGreevey was 2 days ago, it was entirely reasonable to believe he could ride things out and carry on. But he knew he was guilty and continued to lie to people about his involvement, even until his death.

Rest assured this was not a decision made in a vaccuum. I can almost guarantee advisors on state and national level weighed in on the matter. And very likely in their opinion the situation was likely untenable.

Everything I've read is that he consulted with just a handful of close friends and advisors before he made his decision, and that he also did so very quickly after learning about the pending lawsuit.

Also rest assure the decision to resign was not done for the greater good of the residents of NJ but again IMO the greater good of the Dem party.

Maybe, but I also think it's best for NJ. What's the point of going through the massive taxpayer expense of a special election in 3 months to elect someone who will then serve just a few months before having to start campaigning for the 2005 election?

At any rate, what I took issue with more than anything was your second-guessing his reasons for getting married and having a family and being closeted. Until you've been in such a situation, you're talking out of your ass.

But hey, here's my own political punditry: Republicans are just steaming mad that they lost a punching bag and a potential black eye for the Dems and are now just *****ing and moaning out of their own politically ineffectual way in NJ. It's all they can do, and they know it, so they'll take as many cheap shots as they can.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I don't think that resigning because he had a gay affair really passes the smell test. Clinton had an affair and survived, and NJ is a fairly liberal state and wouldn't go all nuts on a homosexual governor. It could be because he was going to get sued by Cipel (ties to the corruption), but that exactly wasn't why he said he was resigning (though it could fit in where he doesn't want the office to be attacked).

And it could be that he is resigning to devote his energies to fixing his family situation and personal life, and that trying to do that would impede his ability to be governor. He's got kids to deal with, not to mention the wife, rest of his family, friends, etc. I don't think I could be effective in my job, especially as governor, were I going through such things.

[Imran Siddiqui]

And it could be that he is resigning to devote his energies to fixing his family situation and personal life, and that trying to do that would impede his ability to be governor. He's got kids to deal with, not to mention the wife, rest of his family, friends, etc. I don't think I could be effective in my job, especially as governor, were I going through such things.

Still doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of pols caught in adulterous situations stayed around. Clinton, for example. I just don't buy that explination.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


At any rate, what I took issue with more than anything was your second-guessing his reasons for getting married and having a family and being closeted. Until you've been in such a situation, you're talking out of your ass.

Why? Aside from the empathy you feel towards his situation, why does that preclude me from discussing a public figure, his 'personal' life, or how it impacts his ability to govern?

As far as I know when you are a politician, your entire life becomes open to scrutiny like it or not as it reflects the integrity of you and how you will represent your constituancy. Does my lack of familiarity with the subject matter deny me my right to question his motivation?

Who decided that?

Any other thought policing you wish to enforce?

You've seemingly gotten the Doublespeak down with such mottos as:

Bravery through surrender.

and

Cowardice through resistance.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Why? Aside from the empathy you feel towards his situation, why does that preclude me from discussing a public figure, his 'personal' life, or how it impacts his ability to govern?

As far as I know when you are a politician, your entire life becomes open to scrutiny like it or not as it reflects the integrity of you and how you will represent your constituancy. Does my lack of familiarity with the subject matter deny me my right to question his motivation?

It's not about you questioning his motivation to resign so much as you questioning his motivation to lead the life he has up until this point. You didn't ask any questions, you just assumed the worst about his intentions and actions wrt his personal life. Nobody said you didn't have the right to question them, but don't cry and whine when your doing so exposes your complete lack of understanding of the situation. Unless you're contending that every gay person who has gotten married has done so for a sleazy, disingenuous and dishonest purpose. Are you?

Any other thought policing you wish to enforce?

So my objecting to your pontificating about a subject on which you are admittingly ignorant is "thought policing?" I don't recall demanding you think a certain way, dear Ogie, only that you refrain from making aspertions until you know the whole story.

You've seemingly gotten the Doublespeak down with such mottos as:

Bravery through surrender.

and

Cowardice through resistance.

Yeah, lord knows my position wasn't qualified or bit more complicated or anything. You yourself seem to have mastered the art of Black or White thought. Congratulations to you!

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Still doesn't pass the smell test. Plenty of pols caught in adulterous situations stayed around. Clinton, for example. I just don't buy that explination.

And plenty didn't, like Bob Livingston. McGreevey is in a unique position, anyway, because the adultery isn't actually the biggest thing he has to deal with wrt to his family!

[Imran Siddiqui]

And plenty didn't, like Bob Livingston.

Frankly I thought that was silly. And more to do with his hypocrisy on the issue of condeming Clinton of having an affair while he wasn't exactly faithful.

because the adultery isn't actually the biggest thing he has to deal with wrt to his family

Yeah yeah yeah, but still. The timing seems too... convenient to me. It's very reminiscent of a Torricelli.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


It's not about you questioning his motivation to resign so much as you questioning his motivation to lead the life he has up until this point. You didn't ask any questions, you just assumed the worst about his intentions and actions wrt his personal life. Nobody said you didn't have the right to question them, but don't cry and whine when your doing so exposes your complete lack of understanding of the situation. Unless you're contending that every gay person who has gotten married has done so for a sleazy, disingenuous and dishonest purpose. Are you?

Nope just for the politican ones which to now has been on the money.

Seriously, I used the factoid that his previous inlaws knew of his sexual orientation therefor so did he. It is an easy extension to jump towards. (You raise points regarding that assumption which may or may not be the case. You'll pardon me if I naturally think the worst of pols in general) That being said the rest follows. Speculation. Damn right! And I really see no problem with that.

So my objecting to your pontificating about a subject on which you are admittingly ignorant is "thought policing?" I don't recall demanding you think a certain way, dear Ogie, only that you refrain from making aspertions until you know the whole story.

I see, I can think anything I want just can't say it?

Really the point I keep coming back to my Dear Boris is that OT represents nothing more than a series of speculations. Why should I refrain or be in any way limited from making those speculations for whatever reason. I suspect were I to refer to the views of another 'poly member that once stated that freedom of speech does not necessarily mean freedom from being offended. (or words to that effect) Am I now less deserving of my ability to voice them than any other 'poly member? You certainly have the right to ignore or discredit them.

As I have previously stated your arguements have not dissuaded me but I respect the fact that you have them and made an effort to state them.

(In any event, I truly mean no offense btw)

Yeah, lord knows my position wasn't qualified or bit more complicated or anything. You yourself seem to have mastered the art of Black or White thought. Congratulations to you!

I obviously know that but it is good to see what rise I can get out of you.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why should I refrain or be in any way limited from making those speculations for whatever reason.

'Cause you are a Republican .