3% of US population behind bars, on parole or on probation last year

[Alexander's Horse]

Tee hee, that occurred to me too - raid Windsor.

I happen to know a teenage native American kid who lives in Windsor. He was in Australia staying with his sister here in Canberra to help him straighten out. Very nice kid but easily led. I took him fishing in the mountains with my boys. He loved it.

He'd been in trouble with the law - in Detroit. He went back and got into trouble again - that's right, in Detroit.

[Berzerker]

It's a culture thing. Americans are violent. The rest of the world is not.

Sig material

[DanS]

Berz: That's a good argument, but its weak point is that we have prohibition and the murder rate started going down real fast when we threw more bad guys in jail. It seems to validate the proposition that indeed you can jail your way out of the problem.

I don't like the results either, but I dislike the alternatives even more.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ramo
There's about half a million nonviolent drug offenders in our prisons.

Most of whom committed other felonies. IIRC the Bureau of Justice states that only 10% of the convicted felons currently in prison are there because a drug related crime was their major offense. There are scads of people who have been convicted of multiple offenses which include drug possession or dealing, but only in a minority of cases is the drug related offense the major offense. Therefore while there may be a half million people in prison who have been convicted of drug related offenses, most of those are serving time for other crimes and the other crime was the more serious offense.

[DanS]

It's a culture thing. Americans are violent. The rest of the world is not.

I agree with this. At least we have been for the last 100 years.

[Alexander's Horse]

I think it's complete nonsense that Americans are more violent than others. Utter twaddle.

The Europeans dominated the world for 4 centuries on the basis of being viscious bastards. Not much has changed.

Australia has a very violent history.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DanS
Berz: That's a good argument, but its weak point is that we have prohibition and the murder rate started going down real fast when we threw more bad guys in jail. It seems to validate the proposition that indeed you can jail your way out of the problem.

I don't like the results either, but I dislike the alternatives even more.

Murder and drug usage are apples and oranges DanS. Completely different things requiring different policies. And do you consider using pot to be morally equivalent to murder? C'mon now.

How can you dislike the alternatives? The alternative is lower crime, less tax dollars wasted, probably less usage, less spread of disease, increased likelihood that addicts get help instead of jail time. What's not to like about legalization?

[Sava]

Originally posted by DanS


I agree with this. At least we have been for the last 100 years.

Did you sleep through history class? Do you have an idea of what Europe was like during the first half of the 20th Century? Does two World Wars and the Holocaust ring a bell?

[Alexander's Horse]

Does the US have the equivalent of the Soccer hooligan?

When the mafia tried to establish itself in Australia and Britain the local crims and the police joined forces to kick them out. The mafia decided it was better to do business with our crims than try and take them on.

[DanS]

I just don't think there will be less usage. There's no reason to believe that there will be less usage as prices decrease.

[DanS]

I think it's complete nonsense that Americans are more violent than others.

I would like to believe you, but the numbers are pretty stark. I've never lived in Albert's ghetto, but I've experienced this stuff first-hand. Of course, there are societies that are more violent, which is depressing.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DanS
I just don't think there will be less usage. There's no reason to believe that there will be less usage as prices decrease.

There's an extremely good reason to think there will be less usage. All of the other nations that have more liberal drug laws have less usage.

And with fully-funded rehab programs, more people will get help. Rehab works. Jail does not.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DanS


I would like to believe you, but the numbers are pretty stark.

Watch Bowling For Columbine. You don't have to agree with Michael Moore's politics, but he addresses that issue. America has a culture of fear perpetuated by our news media. Go to Canada or Western Europe and watch their news. Then you might understand.

It is an issue of culture. I was reading a piece in today's Asian Times about Japan and the extremely high suicide rate. Over 35k in 2003 committed suicide. That's like three times the number of Americans that died of gun-murders.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by DanS


I would like to believe you, but the numbers are pretty stark.

I think the point we're making is the punitive approach and other policies like on gun control is what is encouraging the violence in the USA.

And the gaols are full because the courts are putting a lot people behind bars that in other countries wouldn't be.

Your society isn't naturally more violent than others per se. We've got everything that you've got except the availability of guns.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


I think the point we're making is the punitive approach and other policies like on gun control is what is encouraging the violence in the USA.

And the gaols are full because the courts are putting a lot people behind bars that in other countries wouldn't be.

Your society isn't naturally more violent than others per se. We've got everything that you've got except the availability of guns.

You live in Australia, right AH?

Canada has similar availability of guns and gun ownership, but not the violence. So it's not gun control... although I think some would be helpful.