3% of US population behind bars, on parole or on probation last year

[David Floyd]

"Destroy a neighborhood"? Actually, I think you are holding them responsible for what others do. That's like holding a gun store responsible for someone going on a killing spree.

[Berzerker]

Most of the people I know that got in trouble were because of drugs. Not necessarily the drugs themselves but they did other stuff like stealing, ripping off cars, jumping people, etc.

Prohibition seeks to drive up the cost of drugs, a result is more property crime to pay the inflated prices. Politicians then point to the property crime as an excuse to increase the drug war, the primary cause of the higher property crime rates in the first place, and it all escalates. It's like blaming alcohol and alcohol users for the rise of the Mafia during the 1920's when it was prohibition that led to it's rise... Then when we've imprisoned a few million people and there is a small drop in crime, politicians take credit while ignoring how much lower the crime rates and taxes were when all drugs were legal...

Consider how much crime there'd be if the cost of food jumped 20-50 times. Second, because of prohibition there is a criminal culture that grows up around drugs, a culture that doesn't exist with booze or tobacco. Well, as tobacco taxes increase we are seeing that criminal culture grow...

It's hard to say though for some of the big dealers, some of them can destroy an entire neighboorhood. But usually in that case there is alot of other crap you can get them on, but you want to get them out before it gets to that point.

That's because drugs are illegal. However, some people argue that legal booze dealers ruin neighborhoods and that argument is not without merit if we aren't going to hold the individual boozer responsible for the harm they cause. But the damage to neighborhoods escalates once the booze or drugs is made illegal. The question is not: wouldn't life be better if there were no booze or drugs, i.e., a drug free America? That just isn't an option and the attempt to achieve such a haughty goal just makes life worse. The question is: what's worse, the crime we see with prohibition or the crime we would see and once did without prohibition? There's just no comparison, crime is far higher under prohibition...

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Sure, I don't advocate pardoning people who committed crimes while high, just those who have been put in prison for either using or dealing.

As far as I'm concerned they can lock them up and let them serve their time. It's too bad prisons are as crowded as they are or Id be in favor of extending drug sentences even more. Now that's my opinion based on real life experiences with the scum that sell drugs and the ****ing havoc that it wrecks in the lives of everyone involved. Of course I'm sure some will bring up something about how drugs dealing is a victimless crime and blah blah but from what I've seen it's far from victimless.

Perhaps my opinion is clouded at the moment on the drug issue so treat above paragraph as a rant directed at no one in particular..

[David Floyd]

Now that's my opinion based on real life experiences with the scum that sell drugs and the ****ing havoc that it wrecks in the lives of everyone involved. Of course I'm sure some will bring up something about how drugs dealing is a victimless crime and blah blah but from what I've seen it's far from victimless.

Drug dealing IS a victimless crime. Me giving you cocaine doesn't hurt anyone. What you do with the cocaine may hurt yourself, and your actions while high may hurt others, but that harm is a result of YOUR actions, not mine. I'm simply selling you a good that you want (non-specific "you"), and you're decided what to do with it.

Just like guns. If a gun store sells you a rifle, and you decide to go around killing people, the gun store isn't responsible for what you did, YOU ARE.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Drug dealing IS a victimless crime. Me giving you cocaine doesn't hurt anyone. What you do with the cocaine may hurt yourself, and your actions while high may hurt others, but that harm is a result of YOUR actions, not mine. I'm simply selling you a good that you want (non-specific "you"), and you're decided what to do with it.

Just like guns. If a gun store sells you a rifle, and you decide to go around killing people, the gun store isn't responsible for what you did, YOU ARE.

Believe what you want. I hold both dealers and users responsible.

[Al B. Sure!]

if you ask me, drug dealers should be let free... nah matter fact, they should get subsidized college educations...

drug users though should be given stricter sentences...

[David Floyd]

Believe what you want. I hold both dealers and users responsible.

Well, you can hold them responsible in your head all you want - it's a free country. The problem only comes in when you hold someone legally responsible for the actions of someone else, which is essentially what one does when one locks up non-violent drug dealers.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Well, you can hold them responsible in your head all you want - it's a free country. The problem only comes in when you hold someone legally responsible for the actions of someone else, which is essentially what one does when one locks up non-violent drug dealers.

Seems more people agree with me. Perhaps you should get out there and start campaigning for all drug dealers to be released.

[Bosh]

Believe what you want. I hold both dealers and users responsible.

Which is irrelevant. What matters is what will make life better for people and locking up drug dealers doesn't accomplish much since all it does is drive the prices of drugs a little bit higher and opens a space for a new drug dealer to edge in on the market which will always happen due to the how much more expensive drugs are here than at the source.

And I had no idea that my avatar was in Kill Bill too. Cool!

[Al B. Sure!]

Floyd:

nonviolent drug dealer is quite an oxymoron. there is nothing peaceful about dealing hard drugs... there's a lot of mothers of dead men who can attest to this.

[Berzerker]

As far as I'm concerned they can lock them up and let them serve their time.

Can you do that without forcing me to pay for it? Just curious since you obviously look down your nose at drug dealers while supporting "legalised" robbery on a massive scale to pay for your drug war. Ironic what can be done in the name of morality, huh?

It's too bad prisons are as crowded as they are or Id be in favor of extending drug sentences even more.

Is it too bad we see more violence because of your drug war?

Now that's my opinion based on real life experiences with the scum that sell drugs and the ****ing havoc that it wrecks in the lives of everyone involved.

So if your experience with black people left a bad taste would you advocate putting people in jail for being black? We'd all be in jail if your "logic" was employed consistently, but since supporters of the drug war suffer from a bad case of hypocrisy we need not worry bout that.

Of course I'm sure some will bring up something about how drugs dealing is a victimless crime and blah blah but from what I've seen it's far from victimless.

If I sell or give you a marijuana joint, who is the victim? A crime always has a victim...if there is no victim, there is no crime. But given your logic, selling or owning a gun is a crime with a victim because some people with guns commit murder... It doesn't matter if there are gun dealers and owners who don't murder people since you want to hold ALL drug users and dealers accountable for actions of a minority...

Perhaps my opinion is clouded at the moment on the drug issue so treat above paragraph as a rant directed at no one in particular..

That's the problem, you need generalisations to make your argument. Because Joe Schmo is a drug dealer and Joe murdered someone, everyone who sells or uses drugs should be punished. Sound moral to you? It wouldn't if all white people were jailed for the crimes committed by a minority of white people...

Believe what you want. I hold both dealers and users responsible.

Do you hold Budweiser responsible for the behavior of drunks? Just asking, I really don't expect consistency from you.

Seems more people agree with me. Perhaps you should get out there and start campaigning for all drug dealers to be released.

Might makes right is not a moral argument, would you argue that slavery is moral if %60 voted to enslave a minority?

Forgive my rant, but I've known drug users and drug dealers and while some were scummy, some were very decent people worthy of my loyalty and friendship and I don't take kindly to people smearing them with some perverted guilt by association argument.

[Al B. Sure!]

I've known... drug dealers

Beserker knows drug dealers... how cute

[Berzerker]

nonviolent drug dealer is quite an oxymoron. there is nothing peaceful about dealing hard drugs... there's a lot of mothers of dead men who can attest to this.

Not all drug dealers sell "hard" drugs, but there are plenty of mothers who lost their children to alcohol and tobacco too, processed sugar, cars, guns, swimming pools, etc... Are all the people who sell these products criminals? Wanna compare body counts? How about the ~500,000 who died from alcohol and tobacco last year? How many from ILLEGAL (and I emphasise the word illegal) drugs? How many people have died because of the reduced quality control in illegal drugs because they're illegal? Are you going to take credit for killing them the same way you want to blame drug dealers? How about the mothers who lost children to violence resulting from the drug war? You've adopted the left wing argument that people are not responsible for their actions, that someone else is responsible.

Besides, if we accepted your argument, that would mean drug users are victims and we're punishing them. Make sense? Are there any other crimes for which we punish the victims? No AS, when I smoked pot or used cocaine, I was not a victim thank you very much... It's funny how a supposedly conservative person such as yourself would come off sounding like a commie, they too think their superior wisdom allows them to label people victims even if the alleged victims don't agree, i.e., workers who don't agree they are being "exploited"...

[Al B. Sure!]

what the **** are you talking about? I meant the mothers of dead men who were murdered by rival drug dealers or simply caught in the crossfire.

oh i see... that destructive part of the drug world goes un-noticed... yall drug legalizers aren't getting your hands wet in blood, i see.

[Berzerker]

Beserker knows drug dealers... how cute

Why is it cute or funny? Btw, I said I've known drug dealers.