Some questions on the possible intervention in Sudan.

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
the US gave the SPLA aid in return for human rights improvements, and some NGOs disagreed with this strategy, and this was five years ago. And this proves a conspiracy somehow?

How do you know that President Clinton demanded "human rights" improvements in return for military aid to the rebels?

What it proves is that the Us is supporting the rebels. It is not a conspiracy, it is policy.

[lord of the mark]

current UNSC res situation

'US Ambassador John Danforth said the new text was not a weakening of the draft - simply "UN speak" had replaced the word "sanctions".

Article 41 refers to "measures not involving the use of armed force" to enforce decisions.

These measures include "complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations".

Seven Security Council members - Pakistan, China, Russia, Algeria, Angola, the Philippines and Brazil - had pushed for the reference to sanctions to be removed because they believe Khartoum needs more time to act.

Mr Danforth said the US hoped the resolution would receive unanimous support. '

Plan is to vote Friday.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tripledoc


How do you know that President Clinton demanded "human rights" improvements in return for military aid to the rebels?

What it proves is that the Us is supporting the rebels. It is not a conspiracy, it is policy.

'''Albright made a deal with Garang about more help in return for SPLA improving their human rights record, but Albright did not put pressure on Garang to conclude a peace,'' the UN official said. '


Dont you read your own posts?

[Arrian]

Food Aid = Military Aid, eh?

-Arrian

[KrazyHorse]

Tripledoc, why do you enjoy making a fool of yourself?

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
These measures include "complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations".

In other words you are going to starve them out.

So the US supports a rebel faction fighting against a legitimate and soveriegn government. They allow the civil war go on for say ten years. Both sides commits genocide against the other side. That is practical, since for instance in Nigeria local tribes have been attacking oilfields because they pollute their territory. So then there are no people. Finally to put the last nail in the coffin sanctions are imposed on the central government so the capital will start starving.

Quite possibly secret overflights of the Sudanese terrirtory will commence shortly. These are designed to spray chemicals on cloud formations, causing flashfloods, and prevent any normal rain decipitation. Just like in Cuba.

Regarding Madeline Albright why would you trust her to impose human rights. She after all said that 500..000 dead Iraqi children were a a price she was willing to pay to topple Saddam.

[Arrian]

Quite possibly secret overflights of the Sudanese terrirtory will commence shortly. These are designed to spray chemicals on cloud formations, causing flashfloods, and prevent any normal rain decipitation.

That's priceless.

I mean, even if we were to consider your over-arching theory - that the U.S. manufactures these "human rights disasters" so that it can intervene and steal natural resources - that bit is just so preposterous.

-Arrian

[Tripledoc]

Originally posted by Arrian


That's priceless.

I mean, even if we were to consider your over-arching theory - that the U.S. manufactures these "human rights disasters" so that it can intervene and steal natural resources - that bit is just so preposterous.

-Arrian

From:

Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum

During 1969 and 1970, the CIA deployed futuristic weather modification technology to ravage Cuba's sugar crop and undermine the economy. Planes from the China Lake
Naval Weapons Center in the California desert, where hi tech was developed, overflew the island, seeding rain clouds with crystals that precipitated torrential rains over non-agricultural areas and left the cane fields arid (the downpours caused killer flash
floods in some areas).{22}

22. Hinckle and Turner, p. 293, based on their interview
with the participant in Ridgecrest, California, 27 September
1975.

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/cuba.htm

Also:

As Noam Chomsky described it in a speech in Boston:

"According to the New York Times there are 7 to 8 million people in Afghanistan on the verge of starvation. That was true actually before September 11th. They were surviving on international aid. On September 16th, the Times reported, I'm quoting it, that the United States demanded from Pakistan the elimination of truck convoys that provide much of the food and other supplies to Afghanistan's civilian population."

http://struggle.ws/freeearth/war/hungerNOV01.html

[Az]

LoTM: sanctions are stupid in any case. Someone has to go in. ( I wish I could be sent in. )

[KrazyHorse]

[KrazyHorse]

Just when I think you're hopeless when it comes to foreign affairs, you restore my faith in you.

[chequita guevara]

I'd be willing to be there are real kernels of truth in there somewhere. Your thread is scattershot and I'm not sure why the hell half the things you've postered are even relevent. What the hell do the Khazars have to do with genocide in Sudan?

Some point in general. Human Rights Watch has been on my **** list since they decided to play a bit of politics and lobied for Plan Columbia, saying that they'd rather have a place at the table and try and influence the plan, rather than try to defeat it given that almost certainly the U.S. was going to overlook the human rights provisions in the bill and give Columbia military aid regardless of how many peasants it massacred and tortured.

Amnesty International is on my **** list because what counts as torture and evidence of torture for ever other country in the world (broken bones, beatings, etc.) is (was) not considered torture with regards the state of Israel. So if prisoners in Guatemala turn up with broken bones, that's prima facea evidence of torture, but if Palestinian prisoners had broken bones, well, there's no evidence of torture.

Be that as it may, the reports the two organizations generate are generally well sourced, factually detailed, and are rarely supportive of the West. They do admit to being fooled occassionally, as was the case in Kosovo. If these groups say that genocide is occurring in Darfur, it should be taken seriously, and not seen as evidence of imperialist designs on Sudan.

Next: Sudan is a beastly government, that is probably far worse than Hussein's. It's up there near the top on my list of countries I wouldn't protest the U.S. invading. (It's a short list, though). It practices slavery, it has been waging a genocidal war against the southerners for almost 20 years.

Given that, however, the question of whether genocide is occurring in Darfur is a valid one. The number of reported deaths is very low, when we are talking genocide in general and Sudan specifically. Also, most groups tend to describe the human catastrophes they monitor in hyperbolic fashion. They need to in order to get jaded Westerners' attention for money and aid for their "wards." Could this be the case in Darfur/Chad.

Coming, as it does, however, at the ten year anniversery of the Ruwandan genocide, we are definately sensitive to making sure we don't blow it again. I would rather err on the side of justice than to watch another Ruwanda occur in Darfur.

Now in general, just because the imperialist West is engaged in a war with Islamic extremism does not mean that Islamic extremism is anything with which to empathyze. Being a leftist does not mean knee-jerk opposition to the West. Consider Marx's writing in support of Austria-Hungary's wars in the Balkans. He felt some people weren't ready for self-government (because they weren't economically developed enough to sustain themselves). Marx frequently writes about capitalism as a progressive force, and while generally that era has passed, we shouldn't blindly react against West or its agents.

Islamic fundimentalism is a regressive force in human history. While I don't necessarily accept the label of fascism, it certain draws from the same well-spring as that movement, and has many of the same goals. It is an enemy of human progress, much more so that capitalism or imperialism. If the Soviets and the West could unite against Hitler, the socialists and imperialists can unite against Islamic fundimentalism.

Note for others: Iraq, being a modern and more or less secular society doesn't fall under my standards.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Tripledoc
From:

Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum

There's a difference between spraying chemicals and pests on Cuba, and seeding rain clouds to cause flash floods. One is a known technology. The other is wing-nut fantasy stuff.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Azazel
LoTM: sanctions are stupid in any case. Someone has to go in. ( I wish I could be sent in. )

as ive discussed with Arrian, earlier, whether or not sanctions might work (and in SOME cases they do - there are a number of variables, including how complete the sanctions are, and how much the country being sanctioned cares about the policy its being sanctioned for) its virtually impossible to get the UNSC to support military intervention without threatening sanctions first. And no the US isnt going in alone. Would the europeans be willing to go in without a UNSC resolution, as in Kosovo?? Maybe, but I doubt it, unless the thing gets dramatically worse, from ethnic cleansing with murders and rapes, to actual genocide, in the sense of the govt trying to kill as many as possible.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Tripledoc

So the US supports a rebel faction fighting against a legitimate and soveriegn government. .

the us supplied food aid, to a region that the SUDANESE govt was trying to starve out.

why am i arguing with this guy?