Islam is a peaceful religion is it..

[Dinner]

I think most people would agree that there was a historical figure of Jesus but the account given by his disiples was deliberately changed in order to show Jesus in a better light plus supernatural powers were attributed to him in order to "prove" his connection to divinity.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Would a just God tolerate sin?

It's not about tolerating sin... it's about condemning us to a life of sin from birth. That seems unfair and not the work of a just God. And what about God's sins? If he is creator of all, is he not responsible for allowing sin? If he's God, he could create a world without sin.

Could Adam and Eve live in peace, with plenty of fresh water, and food, plus the companionship of God? They would have each other, and light work to keep them occupied.

Why would God need his creations to do this?

Sounds like paradise to me. Sure, the big man in the sky is uptight about that one plant, but I can dig the rest.

God knowingly created temptation and he knew what the end result would be. He created the sin.

Would it have been better for him not to have created us in the first place?

Perhaps, and we would not be the wiser.

Yes, we have our flaws, but that does not excuse us from our sins. We sin, not only through our nature, but through our desire to sin. We love sin, we glory in it and we revel in it yet we blame God for the temptations?

But sin is subjective in God's eyes. Is something a "sin" just because God says so? What is the reason that say, premarital sex, is a sin? If what we do in this world is of little importance (peaks and valleys, etc) then what does it matter IF we sin? Why would God create us with a desire to sin if he doesn't want us to sin? Is it simply just a game to him? To see if we have enough will power to not indulge ourselves? What kind of a sick demented God would create such a scenario and let it play out for the hundreds of billions (or so) of human beings that have ever lived?

The universe expands, and has a finite size, and finite age.

For one who has read Hawking, remember that he accepts the big bang theory, which presumes a finite universe.

well, to be precise, the big bang says matter is finite, but space extends without boundaries... forever... I don't quite believe in that theory. I think its quite possible that there is infinite matter in the universe and that "big bangs" may be localized events. If space extends forever, who is to say there isn't more matter beyond our detection?

It's like this. I'm in a poker game, and my opponent keeps pulling royal flushes. Every hand. How long do I sit before I accuse him of cheating, or is this merely random?

That analogy doesn't quite relate in any way to our existence. Since there is no way of knowing the "chance" of our random existence, it's not possible to form such an analogy. My point stands. Just because something isn't probable, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Why reject an explanation that does make sense, just because science cannot explain it?

Science does not claim to explain everything, since not everything can be proven empirically.

For example, how would you test God in such a way that the experiment could be replicated consistently?

Because I do not believe in something 100% unless it is proven beyond all doubt. I accept that Christianity's explanation of things, however flawed, is possible... I just don't see it likely. It's more likely it is the manmade creation... myth, superstition. How is the myth of Jesus any more or less valid than say, Zeus or Poseidon? It seems arbitrary to accept the myth of Jesus when it is not proven beyond all doubt.

It's my position that if we cannot explain something adequately, we shouldn't believe in conjecture or assumptions just because they might "make sense". It might "make sense" that rain is the result of God "crying" for instance. But through the scientific method, we have learned how water and weather works. If God has given us anything, he has given us minds with which to use, lose, or abuse. If we cannot explain something, we should continue to seek the truth. If we are content with an unprovable explanation just because it makes sense, we may never KNOW the truth.

How would I test God? It wouldn't be a test, necessarily. It might just be a conversation... if God spoke to me in a way no other person is capable of speaking to me, I might believe in him. For instance, if he were able to take me back in time, or do something beyond the range of what I've come to know as possible in the physical world, then that would be proof enough for me.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III

There's a passage in Quran where Muhammad, or better put God himself speaking through him, accused Christians and jews to have faked some parts of their texts.

Albert Speer: yeah, as i said, they supposedly inserted things.

what passage?
Quote it

Imran Siddiqui: You know, I find it hard to take someone seriously who said that the Koran is wrong because it said Jesus' mother was Miriam and not Mary, while not realizing the Miriam is the Arabic name for Mary!

Man, did you really just not read my argument?
I gave as an argument that the father of Miriam, the mother of Jesus is Amran in the Koran.
Amram is the father of Miriam and Moses in the Bible.

This has nothing to do with arabic names.
I find it hard to take someone seriously who doesn't even read the arguments one gives, but just jumps on the bandwagen after reading 30% of someones post.

What about Native Americans before 1492 and everyone who lived before Jesus Christ? They didn't know about Jesus. Are they in hell just because they never knew about him?

No, Paul's letter to the romans deals with this.
It says that the gentiles who do not have the law have their own concience as a law.
Believing in Jesus means you don't believe you can do it yourself.

If people who do not know Jesus still admit that they're not able to achive good by themselves and hope someone can help them, I'm sure Jesus will help them.

And in the end I'm sure that God will judge everyone rightiously.

See Christianity is bull**** because supposedly all you need to get into heaven is faith.

The original sin is that humans thought they could be gods themselves, deciding over good and evil.
Having faith in Jesus means you admit that you can't be god yourself, since you're not able to rightully judge over good and evil. That's why you depend on Jesus.

Having faith in Jesus means you want to be renewed by Jesus. Everyone needs to be renewed by Jesus to live onthe renewed earth.
Hitler needs to, Sadam Hoessein needs to, I need to and so do you.

It's your opinion that people should earn eternal life. There's nothing to be earned though. God wants to give everybody eternal life, but demands those who enter it to be renewed. How can a corrupted person live on a good new earth without corrupting it?

The correct answer to religion is simple. We don't know. Nobody living, and nobody who has ever lived, knows if there is a God.

It's always easy to ignore many people who actually did talk to God. It's a little bit of "If it didn't happen in the 21st century and it was not on tv, it's not true"

Only a fool can believe that there's nothing between heaven and earth. Only a fool can believe that only that what we can observe exists. Only a fool can believe that there are no supernatural powers working on this earth. Something that has been proved many times.

We do know. God has sent prophets, who proved themselves by prophecising things that happen in our days. They prove they knew things thousands of years before they happened.

People have been healed, and the message has been said. That you ignore these prophecies and these miracles, and still claim that we can't know morely shows your ignorance then that it speaks of the truth.

It only speaks of your 21st century truth. The truth you believe in because everybody around you believes in.
The truth everybody believes in on this day and age, but which will be forgotten and laughed about in 500 years, because the people will have new excuses in those days to not believe in God.

So all religions... Judaism, Islam, Christianity... they all are works of fiction created by humans. And thus, shouldn't be believed in.

Of course it is amazing that the bible is written by more then 30 different persons over a period of 1500 years.
People from total different social classes. Like kings and stephards. Generals and poets. Fishers and tax-collectors. By people who lived in the Roman empire, the babylonian empire, the greek empire.
And still the Bible is very very consistent. The message is clear through all those very different books. Books with poems, lessons, chronicles, letters, prophecies. Not just one style, but many styles.

And the writers of these books didn't make themselves the hero's. David admits his big mistakes. (adultery, murdering) Pete writes how foolish he has been. Paul writes about his murdering past and admits that he is the biggest sinner ever.

Moses writes how he was a fool by thinking he knew better then God.

In all those books not the writers are central, but God is and Jesus is. Why would these writers be so consistant about a person who is death? Why would they give their lives for something they were sure about that it was a lie?

Why would Pete die on a cross for Jesus, while he knows that he didn't saw Jesus after his death?
Would you lie that your friend ressurected and die for it, while you know that your friend didn't ressurect?

The bible is not written by just one human. And the christian faith has not been invented by one person.
It's not to be compared with the islam, who had one person who one day wrote one book and claimed that God gave him the texts.

What *if* mohammed was a brilliant idiot who sucked it all from his thump?
But if you take 4 or 5 or 10 writers from the bible, and claim that they are idiots, there are still 20 others left over and more then enough material to show the consistance through the ages, through the millenia.

Mohammed was the hero of his own faith.
He conquered much land and forced people to believe him. He was more a warrior then a prophet.
Islam is founded on one person.

The christian faith / jewish faith is not. It's been with us for as long as we can write.

[Robert]

Sava: If God created me, he created my critical thinking mind. Surely a religion that is true would be written in such a way to satisfy the questions of the critical mind.

I do have a critical mind, and the bible does satisfy it.
The question is: do you depend that much on your own critical mind that you don't want to admit that your critical mind is fallable, like you are fallable?

That's the message of the bible.
Do you want to be the god of your own life, deciding of good and evil in your life? Or do you admit that you're not able to.

As long as you won't admit that you cannot be your own god (or king, or boss, or whatever) I'm sure that the bible will not answer to your critical mind. Since your critical mind will criticize everything that goes against your critical mind.

[Robert]

Sava, go read the revelation of John apocalypse and you'll find equally nasty stuff...

The book of revelations is a prophecy.
It's not an order to christians, like: go out and kill the enemies.
Besides that, the apocalypse most of all includes the surpression of the christians themselves.

[Kidlicious]

How can we be held responsible for what we believe. If we purposely don't listen to facts or open our mind I can see some responsibility, but that seems a special case.

[Robert]

what evidence? 2000 year old stories isn't enough proof for me.

So, something that was true 2000 years ago isn't true right now anymore only because it's 2000 years later?

In that case all books over evolution can't be token seriously in 2000 years as well, because they're 2000 years old?

If someone in the 21th century meets God and writes about it, his writings are valuable in during the 21th century, but suddenly utter crap in the 22th century since they're 100 years old?

If it hasn't been on TV it's not true?

I think it is likely he existed. But, mind you, I think Jesus Christ actually existed... but all the supernatural stuff? I don't so much believe that.

supernatural stuff happens every day on earth.
Have you ever been in africa?
Do you really deny the fact that supernatural things happen?

Part of the problem I have with Christianity is the question faith. I get the impression I'm suppose to have faith regardless of proof. And that just isn't good enough for me.

Are 3000 year old prophecies coming true today not enough proof?

Zach 12:3
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

of course the last line still has to happen. Just a matter of time if I read the newspapers.

2 Tim3 :
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

Amos 9:14-15
"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God."

Ez 34:13
"And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country."

[Al B. Sure!]

Molly:

According to legend, the Egyptian god Osiris created the world by an act of masturbation.

where the hell did you get this lie?

Amun created the world by masturbation! Amun!

He also created Hu (the personification of the word) and Sia (the personification of intellect) from his bleeding (yes his bleeding) penis.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Molly:

where the hell did you get this lie?

Amun created the world by masturbation! Amun!

He also created Hu (the personification of the word) and Sia (the personification of intellect) from his bleeding (yes his bleeding) penis.

I thought it was Ptah who created the world in Egyptian myth.

[Al B. Sure!]

no... Ptah created men...

[Robert]

Originally posted by Kidicious
How can we be held responsible for what we believe. If we purposely don't listen to facts or open our mind I can see some responsibility, but that seems a special case.

The question is if you are happy with yourself, and believe that you're a good person, or do you see the corruption in yourself. Do you see that there's something wrong with us.

[Sava]

Originally posted by CyberShy


The question is if you are happy with yourself, and believe that you're a good person, or do you see the corruption in yourself. Do you see that there's something wrong with us.

There's definitely something wrong with humanity as a whole, but I don't believe we are born into sin as Christianity teaches. We have a mind to determine between wrong and right. And having said that, morality is subjective, not universal. And there must be reason behind wrong/right, good/evil. According to Christian teachings, not keeping a Sabbath is a sin, right? What difference does that make? What is the difference if one out of seven days is devoted to God? Why does God need humans to do this?

I suppose that's the difference between believers and someone like myself. I question, why things are the way they are. I seek to understand. I question the establishments of religion. And the best answer I get is, "We are imperfect, so you can't understand the answer, so don't ask."

That's a pretty weak answer. And it hardly gives credibility to the notion that there is a God.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Sava
...According to Christian teachings, not keeping a Sabbath is a sin, right? What difference does that make? What is the difference if one out of seven days is devoted to God? Why does God need humans to do this?

There is a text in the New Testament about this. Some of the diciples were taking ears of corn from the fields, and the Pharisees said this was blasphemy, "working" on the Sabbath.

Jesus is recorded as saying, "which is it better to do on the Sabbath? Good or evil?"

So, no it isn't.

[SIZE=1]
I suppose that's the difference between believers and someone like myself. I question, why things are the way they are. I seek to understand. I question the establishments of religion. And the best answer I get is, "We are imperfect, so you can't understand the answer, so don't ask."

That's a pretty weak answer. And it hardly gives credibility to the notion that there is a God.

My own understanding of religions is that they are belief systems with rules. When it's OK to be born, to fvck, to kill, to die, and when it's not.

Personally I reckon no belief system can account for all possible variables. In other words, I take life in my stride and make my own decisions.

It's a lot easier, making decisions as you go, rather than trying to make the "correct" decision all the time.

[Robert]

There's definitely something wrong with humanity as a whole, but I don't believe we are born into sin as Christianity teaches.

Christianity teaches that we are born leaning towards wrong. We are not born in sin.
Every human is doing wrong. Some do more wrong then others. But we all do wrong. There's no-one on earth who never harmed someone, fysical or psychical.
I think that if we look at humanity we can conclude that everybody leans towards doing wrong.

In which doing wrong means: serving yourself most of all, and have your own profit on the first place. or in other words: being the god of your own kingdom called 'me'.

We have a mind to determine between wrong and right.

That's true, that's what the bible says.
The original sin is that we want to determine between wrong and right ourselves, instead of leaving it up to the professional, who is God.

We have a mind to determine between wrong and right, but for some reason we can't. If we could, why is it such a mess on earth?

And having said that, morality is subjective, not universal.

Morality is subjective indeed.
But there is a way to live together in which everybody will be most happy. Like there is a way to ride a car so that it will work the longest period.
Much people have much opinions on how to ride a car as good as possible. And most opinions are subjective. But that doesn't mean that there is no way to keep your car as good as possible.

I would say, if you ride a car, listen to the constructor of the car on how to use it.
If you are a human, listen to your creator to know how to live, sine he'll most obviously know how you will be the most happy and living in hapyness with your fellow humans.

But humans rather listen to themselves and decide themselves on how to live then that they listen to their creator.

According to Christian teachings, not keeping a Sabbath is a sin, right? What difference does that make? What is the difference if one out of seven days is devoted to God? Why does God need humans to do this?

No, the jews keep the sabbath as a sacred day in their constitutial law. Christians don't have a holy / sacred day. They do have a day on which they celebrate the ressurection of Jesus. But that day isn't different then other days, besides that the church meets on that day.

The New Testament is clear that days are all equal.

Why is the sabbath in the old testament, you wonder?
Well, in the constitutional laws of The Netherlands it is written that we may not work more then 40 hours per week, and not more then 6 days in a week.

It's to make sure that people have rest.
I think there is a thing that it's better for a society if all people rest on the same day, so they can have their off-day together. Build their friendship and their family values.

I suppose that's the difference between believers and someone like myself. I question, why things are the way they are. I seek to understand.

Why do you think you and I differ on that?
You should really get rid of your 'christians don't think by themselves and never criticize their believe and only listen to their preacher' idea.

It does not apply to most modern christians.
I think there are more people believing blind in evolution then christians who believe blind Jesus Christ and what the bible says.

I question the establishments of religion. And the best answer I get is, "We are imperfect, so you can't understand the answer, so don't ask."

That's not the answer I gave you.

That's a pretty weak answer. And it hardly gives credibility to the notion that there is a God.

that's why I don't give that answer.
Neither does the bible give that answer.
I know, much christians do, but that's because they don't understand it themselves.

When all is said and done there will of course be answers that'll stay open. But nobody forbids us to keep on looking for those answers.

The real question is: would you be able to accept the truth if the truth means that you're not able to achive total hapyness by yourself but you must be helped by someone else who is better then you are?

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by CyberShy

Sava, go read the revelation of John apocalypse and you'll find equally nasty stuff...

The book of revelations is a prophecy.
It's not an order to christians, like: go out and kill the enemies.
Besides that, the apocalypse most of all includes the surpression of the christians themselves.

The quran quote sava made and on which I commented was about the expectations of unbelievers in hell too.