I, Robot

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
And my point is you're wrong, that people do things in full knowledge that they are diminishing their maximal happiness for immediate gratification.

They're diminishing their FUTURE happiness for immediate happiness. Everyone seeks to maximize their immediate happiness. It's just that some derive happiness simply from being secure in the knowledge that that happiness will exist in the future.

[chequita guevara]

I don't know what happiness means to you.

[DinoDoc]

Why in God's name would you people turn this in to a Marx vs Smith discussion?

[Kuciwalker]

How's it a Marx vs Smith discussion? Hell, we haven't even gotten to free will yet

[chequita guevara]

When did Marx or Smith come in to this. We're discussing Mills.

[KrazyHorse]

They're diminishing their FUTURE happiness for immediate happiness. Everyone seeks to maximize their immediate happiness. It's just that some derive happiness simply from being secure in the knowledge that that happiness will exist in the future.

You're insane.

[Kuciwalker]

No, I'm not. I seek to maximize my happiness. Therefore I am a rational agent and quite sane

[KrazyHorse]

You're insane because you think that if I die in agony saving another human being from a fire I will be happier in my last seconds than if I sit back and watch him burn, and that this is what would prompt me to do it.

I can guarantee you that for me, at least, this is not true.

[KrazyHorse]

Your insanity is sociopathic, not psychopathic. Your thought processes may be cogent, however you demonstrate a complete lack of empathy and understanding where your fellow human beings' thought processes are concerned.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You're insane because you think that if I die in agony saving another human being from a fire I will be happier in my last seconds than if I sit back and watch him burn, and that this is what would prompt me to do it.

You THINK you will. Physical pain is only one form of unhappiness.

I can guarantee you that for me, at least, this is not true.

Well, then, you're insane

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Your insanity is sociopathic, not psychopathic. Your thought processes may be cogent, however you demonstrate a complete lack of empathy and understanding where your fellow human beings' thought processes are concerned.

Whatever.

You act towards your greatest inclinations. That's frigging obvious.

[KrazyHorse]

I act towards my greatest inclinations. Duh. By definition.

However those are not equivalent to greatest happiness. Especially not greatest immediate happiness.

[KrazyHorse]

You seek to redefine words to fit your argument.

Human always act to maximise their immediate happiness. How do we know this? Because immediate happiness is by definition the state we act toward.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You're insane because you think that if I die in agony saving another human being from a fire I will be happier in my last seconds than if I sit back and watch him burn, and that this is what would prompt me to do it.

You THINK you will. Physical pain is only one form of unhappiness.

I've watched three human beings die in my lifetime. And let me tell you something:

if I had to go through the three seconds of thinking that my cowardice had condemned somebody else to death or the three seconds of being burned alive I would choose the mental pain.

However, if I had to choose between actually saving somebody's life and saving my own in that situation I hope I would choose the first.

It would not be a choice for my own happiness but for what I believe to be right. And doing what I believe to be right does not always bring me happiness.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Originally posted by General Ludd
That's pretty dodgy math.

When utility equals usefullness, for happiness to equal supreme utility it would also have to equal supreme usefullness. What is the usefullness of happiness? Very little, it is simply an emotion - a reward for your actions.

Utility and usefulness, unless you specifically say towards some specific end (like, say, killing people; a weapon has a high "usefulness" there), is happiness. I challenge you to find any other meaningful (ie non-arbitrary) definition of the term.

And I challange you to explain how your definition is meaningful and non-arbitrary. Ask a goth version of yourself and he'll tell you that misery is utility.

Of course, none of this changes the fact that happiness can be derived through things which are not in your own self interest.

No it can't! It's in your self-interest to be happier! Nothing more!

Still stuck in the feedback loop, I see.


How is it in your self interest to stop someone elses suffering? it makes you happy

How is that happiness in your self interest?

it makes you happy

How is that happiness in your self interest?

it makes you happy

How is that happiness in your self interest?

it makes you happy



So i'll just point up to the post before where I say that if you're going to use happiness as an end all be all reason for everything, you have to look at the cause of the happiness itself to get any true meaning, otherwise you're just saying "it is, cause it is!".


An action is the cause and happiness is the effect. You do not stop someone elses suffering because you are happy, you become happy that you have stoped someone elses suffering.

Is doing selfless acts for happiness which is derived through selflessness somehow selfish?

You're the only one talking about selfishness. Self-interest != selfishness. [/quote]

Kucinich - the walking, talking, self-morphic dictionary.

Selfishness is doing something for yourself, and that is what self interest is. Selfishness does not imply doing something at the expense of others any more than doing something that is in your self interest.

The words are the same, I just feel like a tool saying self-interest 50 times in every post.

No, but I have to wait for my parents to fall asleep to get back on the computer

Ah, so you don't sleep at all. that makes even more sense.