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Originally posted by Agathon
No one is claiming that it was some sort of Eden, only that, if anything is natural, it is the moral economies of tribal societies - markets require us to suppress our natural altruism.
These are the facts.
Natural altruism? Facts? Bwahahahaha.
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Just saw your name as one of the contributors to the Civ 2 entry
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Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
To everyone: What happens when the line between corperation and government becomes blurred?
The Boosh admin
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Originally posted by notyoueither
Who's 'buying' it?
The point is consumers cannot change either of the things I quoted. See, they are counterexamples to your argument.
Originally posted by notyoueither
Even in the darkest corner of liberty deprived PRC, villagers are buying things. They are voting with the fruits of their labour in ways the gubmint would never allow them to with a ballot.
Never pass over a chance to throw a spin, right?
Originally posted by notyoueither
The market, which is based on human desire, and therefore nature, overcomes political systems that think they have transcended it.
"The market" is not based on human nature. Anybody who took Econ 101 knows that.
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Of course people are naturally altruistic. How else do you explain the fact that an altruistic principle is at the heart of every moral code I can think of?
Find some better theory. Markets are not natural. Sure people have swapped stuff for a long time, but that is compatible with gift and moral economies - which they operated in.
Originally posted by notyoueither
... and you get a choice of 4 or 5 or 6 parties for gubmint. Whereas the consumer has hundreds of choices, even if poor, and therefore has an impact.
What hundreds of choices?
In carbonated beverages, we get to choose between Coca Cola Inc and Pepsi Inc. Depending on the store, there might also be some Life, Master's Choice, or Virgin in the mix.
In cereals, we get to choose between Kellogg's and Post.
In chocolate bars, we get to choose between Mars Inc and Hershey Foods Corporation.
Chances are, some of those companies are owned by the same multinational and the actual choices are even more limited.
But, St Leo, do we buy a candy bar? A donut? A box of cereal? A bottle of pop? A six-pack? What? Thousands of choices, and those choices added up have a far larger impact on the course of events than a single ballot cast once every 4 or 5 years for A, B, C, or D.
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Of course people are naturally altruistic. How else do you explain the fact that an altruistic principle is at the heart of every moral code I can think of?
Find some better theory. Markets are not natural. Sure people have swapped stuff for a long time, but that is compatible with gift and moral economies - which they operated in.
I've lost nothing when someone wants to make a spectacle of himself by claiming that human beings are basically altruistic.
I suggest you get your nose out of Plato, and into a little history. You seem to be in need of a reality check.
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If it is unnatural, why is it the way of things unless disrupted by 'revolutionaries' wanting to 'advance history' in the wake of which 'nature' reasserts control?
Your fairy tales about idyllic scenes notwithstanding, people gathering and buying things they liked, ie the 'market', is as old as Jericho.
Jericho was built very, very recently -- only ten thousand years ago.
Modern humans have been around for twenty times longer -- two hundred thousand years.
Near humans have been around for two hundred times longer -- two millions years.
Our ancestors wished bon voyage to the ancestors of our chimp brethren five million years ago -- an event five hundred times older than the foundation of Jericho.
The only known modern neolithic society (and neolithic society are a very recent development) that could be considered remotely capitalistic are the Kapauku of Papua New Guinea. Virtually every other known neolithic society is organized along egalitarian lines.
Originally posted by Agathon
Of course people are naturally altruistic. How else do you explain the fact that an altruistic principle is at the heart of every moral code I can think of?
Well, because the *leaders* of the society want the others to surrender their possessions on command, and for the young men to die on command, killing other societies young men to gain stuff that society has or to destroy the threat their society poses.
And throughout most of history, the heart of society's moral code has not been "altruistic". It's been "Shut up, stay in your place, and do what you are told." From your statements, you are not very familar with many societies. Feel free to actually go read a bit about the ancient cultures. We know about the teachings and morality of most cultures that lasted for several generations at least since ancient Egypt.
But if you want to believe different, that's understandable. Without altruism, your favorite ideal system falls down doesn't it? That's alright though... all social systems eventually fail. Don't feel so bad and defensive over it.
Originally posted by St Leo
What hundreds of choices?
In carbonated beverages, we get to choose between Coca Cola Inc and Pepsi Inc. Depending on the store, there might also be some Life, Master's Choice, or Virgin in the mix.
Boy, you must live in the boondocks of Maine. Even out in the heart of redneck USA, they have between 4 to 8 choices of carbonated beverage providers. Which is always a bigger choice then the average American has in political candidates.
The same is true for chocolates, cereals, etc etc etc.
Even if you shop at 'average' supermarket, you will generally find more choices then two "corporate" makers. Again, unlike our national politics.
Except and until they were bashing the brains in of the next neolithic society.
Ever heard of what happened when Cree and Innu met each other? Sure, they lived cooperatively among themselves, but altruistic I would not call them.
My parents and grandparents came from just such a society of cooperative effort for mutual survival. Prairie farmers would band together to get the work done when the heavy seasons hit.
But altruism means selfless, yes? They didn't do it for selfless reasons. They knew that they couldn't survive themselves without that cooperation. In other words, they went out and broke there backs helping another so that others would come and help them if and when they needed it.
Getting something for something is not altruism. That's a market.
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Originally posted by notyoueither
But, St Leo, do we buy a candy bar? A donut? A box of cereal? A bottle of pop? A six-pack? What? Thousands of choices, and those choices added up have a far larger impact on the course of events than a single ballot cast once every 4 or 5 years for A, B, C, or D.
Which course of events do my purchases supposedly impact?
Say, I vote NDP. The reinstitute a proper national housing programme. This gets some homeless off the streets and into a base from which they can choose to become active members of society again. Maybe they'll write a great novel or finish their PhD instead of getting raped and knifed to death in an alley.
Clear results.
Say, I buy two tonnes of Mars bars and twenty thousand cans of Coca Cola. The board of Coca Mars Inc decides to circumvent American income tax by issuing a dividend. Every intern gets $2 and the CEO get $20 million. The CEO already has enough for food, shelter, and other necessities, so the $20 million just sits in a bank doing nothing special.
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