"We need to have a less-cramped view of what torture is and is not"

[Impaler[WrG]]

Gitmo is not US territory, Its part of Cuba the is leased "in perpetuity" to the US. The US goverment is ofcorse the only power their and thus its in our jurisdiction. This whole "Is it" or "ain't It" argument is bull **** and we all know it. If Gitmo was a UN NAVY BOAT in the middle of International waters would that make one bit of differnce in the constituion or geneva convention?

Check out the arguments made before the Supream Court resently the whole administration Gitmo argument was torn apart, it will probably be a few months though before a rulling is handed down.

[MrWhereItsAt]

This gets more horrific every time.

No wonder the US government is demanding exemption from the international War Crime's Tribunal for US citizens - the President has the potential to be the worst offender of all!

/me shakes his head

Support US troops being in Iraq or not, there are a few things that no-one has an excuse not to oppose. Legal excuses for torture are one of those.

[SpencerH]

So are you all saying that if we capture a terrorist who has planted a dirty nuclear device in an american city (we know he did because he is contaminated by radioactive isotopes) that we should just ask him politely where it is?

[GePap]

, right, cause its between torture and asking nicely.....

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SpencerH
So are you all saying that if we capture a terrorist who has planted a dirty nuclear device in an american city (we know he did because he is contaminated by radioactive isotopes) that we should just ask him politely where it is?

In that case, you can just follow the trail of radioactive isotopes.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap
, right, cause its between torture and asking nicely.....

I'm not sure how to define torture, but it's unlikely that anyone would define 'asking politely' as such. So yes the choice is between 'torture' and 'asking politely'.

Please feel free to answer the question. Its unlikely that you will though, since this is your typical method to avoid any issue i.e. attempt to parse any question down to smaller and smaller bits of trivial details.

[Nubclear]

It's interesting how all the propaganda the Soviet Union churned out concerning America seems to be coming true

[Patroklos]

And that is the point, what is the middle ground between asking nicely and torture?

It appears that in all this hype we are making torture a much larger category. Sleep deprevation, loud noise, and most nudity stuff (the parades are, in you cell alone nude isn't) has NEVER been considered torture and has been employed forever by everyone to right now.

You all are just causists, so this is the topic we will exaggerate today. Tomarrow you will be asking why we DIDN'T torture more prisoners to stop the next terrorist attack. It is sort of pathetic.

[GePap]

Originally posted by SpencerH


I'm not sure how to define torture, but it's unlikely that anyone would define 'asking politely' as such. So yes the choice is between 'torture' and 'asking politely'.

Please feel free to answer the question. Its unlikely that you will though, since this is your typical method to avoid any issue i.e. attempt to parse any question down to smaller and smaller bits of trivial details.

Oh, I am sorry- I forgot you like to peddle in insane generalizations and in unclear terms.....

As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture.

But please ignore this point again. It's part of your charm.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by GePap


Oh, I am sorry- I forgot you like to peddle in insane generalizations and in unclear terms.....

As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture.

But please ignore this point again. It's part of your charm.

Please note Patroklos post. He understood the obvious point even while you chose to continue with your normal song and dance.

In keeping with your own desire to see 'proof' of claims, I'd love to see your reference for the failure of torture to gain results. Please feel free to post anything other than the reiteration of the mindless babble that goes on here amongst those who's life experiences are limited to books (or the internet).

[GePap]

First, reread the thread on the prisoner abuse case-the long one. the info is there.

As for what Patroklos means-who is he to say that has never been considered torture? talk about pulling stuff out of ass. Certainly the nudity is forbidden as part of the Geneva convention, as degrading prisoners. IN FACT THAT IS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE!!! Helo McFly! What do you think the admin. lawyers were investigating? How to make bunt cake?

As for sleep deprivation and other methods, this has been in the courts of Israel and IIRC the courst found this to be means of torture, though I think they found it sometimes "justifiable" the first time it went all the way.

[Wernazuma III]

Somehow, it's not even funny anymore to disagree with American conservatives. It's really disturbing.

[Nubclear]

Let me tell you: If pictures got out about Saddam stripping American POWs naked and putting them in compromising positions (we're going to ignore the physical torture from both sides), the conservatives would be pointing to it as "Yet another example of why the invasion is right.".

Selective morality....

[Patroklos]

As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture.

I would agree with that statment completely GePap, but now with all this hype they are labeling legitimate intelligence and interrogation techniques as "torture."

Basically what the people in this thread want is for every interrogation to take a prisoner into a room with carpet, pretty wall paper and antique furniture (concrete walls and a table and chairs is somehow "torture"), air conditioning (but not too cold, as that is "torture") or heating (but not too hot, you know the whole "torture" thing), with an Armani suit on (anything less would be "torture"), no yelling ("torture"), with the suspect asking the questions (wouldn't want to ask the wrong one ourselves and "torture" them), five minute sessions (wouldn't want to terrorize them with long conversation), No bright light (a good steriotype, but what if his eyes are sensitve...), AND WHATEVER YOU DO NEVER, NEVER, EVER try and obtain any usefull information. EVER.

There is a differance between being tortured and bieng made uncomforable.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Patroklos

There is a differance between being tortured and bieng made uncomforable.

And yet, the admin. lawyers considered many of the things you say are not torture "torture", which is why they did this memo in the first place.