Is Islam a form of Fascism?

[Al B. Sure!]

Gepap:

The Nazi did not take over the Churches, and in fact they were generally anti-Christian

bull**** meter just went up...

explain the standard Wehrmacht belt buckle with the words "Gott Mit Uns"

[GePap]

My take on fascism:

Fascismis a modern political ideology. Important factors that make it fascism as opposed to other theories:

1. Mass POlitics- Fascism seeks to engage the masses in a grand movement

2. National Identity as core of consciousness. What I mean by that is that the fascism sees Mans most important identity being formed by culture, not economics (socialism)-and the most important grouping of men then is the nation, which is built out of that shared cultural identity.

3. Confused about the future: Fascists are inherently reactionary in that they invoke the common cultural heritage they see as having being the basis of the nation and use it as the reality that gives them legitimacy. It makes sense then to trying to make it stronger-at the same time, they are radicals, as they seek to remake the state and build mass politics, which is general will either conflict with the less popular (as in more exclusive) politics of the day, or destroy the existing parlimentary system in power.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Gepap:

bull**** meter just went up...

explain the standard Wehrmacht belt buckle with the words "Gott Mit Uns"

Ah, cause the Wehrmacht and the Nazi Party were not the same thing?

HELLO!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Thank you for your input, Mr. 19th-Century. Now please go back to your own time.

That's pretty ironic, coming from an avowed communist...

That went over your head completely, didn't it.

[Whaleboy]

I, personally, define Fascism as a kind of applied nationalism, basically nationalism with lots of emphasis on the military, and a tendency to be a policy state. Scapegoating, witch hunts, totalitarian communism may feature too.

[Al B. Sure!]

Cruddy:

Islam, being about 10 times bigger than Judaism

1.4 Billion muslims in the world as opposed to 14 million jews. 1000 times more Muslims than Jews.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
isms and icities suck

I thought you are into Libertarianism?

[Drake Tungsten]

That went over your head completely, didn't it.

No. I guess this is your response to my dead-on comment, though, isn't it? Why can't we just hug, fellow anachronism?

[Al B. Sure!]

Gepap:

those three you mentioned could be used to describe anything. all populist politics (not as in the idealogy buit as in opposed to establishment politics) cater to mass movements... those opposing the marxist view of dialectic materialism are forced into the fascistic cultural view of the world... and uncertainty about the future.

Republicans and democrats would be fascists by those standards.

[Cruddy]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Cruddy:



1.4 Billion muslims in the world as opposed to 14 million jews. 1000 times more Muslims than Jews.

Maybe that means a Muslim is 1,000 more times open to stereotyping than a Jew?

I'd have thought that 14 mill figure is a little too low... I mean, is it a count of all the people born of Jewish mothers or is it all those that have had a Bar Mitvah or what?

Does it include the "lapsed" community who profess they aren't Jewish or indeed interested in being Jewish?

Where is the line drawn?

These are all rhetorical questions - you can see why I was not aiming to be too specific.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

That went over your head completely, didn't it.

No. I guess this is your response to my dead-on comment, though, isn't it? Why can't we just hug, fellow anachronism?

I'll consider it when I see a Runza.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran, but religions have dramatically changed/destroyed cultures. The various germanic cultures of the dark ages were drastically changed with their conversion to christianity... the ancient Persian culture, steeped in zoroastrianism, merged with the culture of the muslim arabs, disappearing as a distinct culture.

Most of the time they have adopted cultural practices and used it as their own. After all, Easter and Christmas were originally pagan rituals. And in different countries, the religion is a bit different, based on the local culture.

[Al B. Sure!]

basically nationalism with lots of emphasis on the military, and a tendency to be a policy state.

the militarization of the broad of society should also be considered an aspect of fascism.

the problem with this thread is that one has to assume too much to answer the question. first we were arguing over Islam vs Islamism... then what is Islamism... then what is fascism?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Nationalism isn't primary to fascism. What is primary to fascism is rage against modern society.

God, being the inconsiderate bastard He is, did not provide us with a list of definitive and universal definitions of political terms. Therefore our definitions are arbitrary, and only work as long as both sides of a discussion use the same ones.

Yours, and, I gather, Berman's, is, then, no more inherently wrong than any other. I however consider it to be bad from a practical PoV, since it agrees neither with what the average joe on the street understands under the term, nor with what the people who developed an ideology they called Fascism considered it to be.


If we were more interested in furthering understanding than in lengthy discussions that do not lead anywhere in particular, we'd drop the question whether Islamism should be labeled 'Fascism', and instead speak of its practical importance and relevance, and perhaps to of its merits (or lack thereof) as an ideological system. Comparisons with European '30s Fascism may or not be considered relevant or enlightening, but do no hinge on whether we unify both under a label of "Fascism".

[Al B. Sure!]

Imran:

And in different countries, the religion is a bit different, based on the local culture.

of course there's slight differences between christianity in Peru with christianity in Italy or something but most of the differences you are attesting to are differences in the religion themselves. Russian christianity has always been different from Italian christianity not because of cultural differences prior to conversion as much as because of different religions (orthodox as opposed to catholicism) being spread to the respective areas. similiarily, i don't think you could say English or german christianity was much different than their french or spanish variants until the protestant reformation when new faiths appeared.

granted, you could argue that protestantism as opposed to catholicism gained support in England and germany because of pre-existing cultural reasons but then why didn't the protestant phenomenum occur centuries before? why did Catholicism even take hold in these areas if their cultures were set for a more protestant-like religion?