Canadian Election Tread (part deux)

[notyoueither]

You have their draft legislation, Tingkai? Could you post it?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Layton is an extremist. So am I.

That's why we're not in line for an NDP government any time soon.

But people know what they're voting for when they vote for Jack. People don't know what they're getting into when they vote for Steve. The guy is as far to the right on economic issues as Layton is to the left.

It's interesting that you immediately believe the best when this **** comes out of the Conservatives, but if someone attacks Harper in much more moderate terms than claiming he ****s little kids, it must have been personally authorised by Paul Martin.

The Conservatives have barely been able to keep themselves from talking themselves into the history books. Harper's had to muzzle his own candidates because they've been embarassing him. Why should we trust anything which comes out of their mouths?

Half of the high-profile Tories defecting (including the entire Atlantic caucus) when Harper took over should have been a sign...

Because Liberal and NDP candidates have said similar things to just about everything a Conservative has, and sometimes worse? It's just the Liberals and NDP don't get raked on it the way the Conservatives have been raked.

Oh, and the entire Atlantic caucus did not go, nor did the premiers who have come on side lately with some of his whackier ideas. You know, like a better deal of equalisation and elected senate seats.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Based on what said by whom, where?

Pages 33-34 of the Conservative Platform:

http://www.conservative.ca/platform/e.pdf

"In March 2002, a B.C. court aquitted John Robin Sharpe on two child pornography charges onthe basis that his material had "artistic merit".[listed as a defence in the Criminal Code of Canada] Canadians overwhelmingly called on the federal government to immediately eliminate this legal loophole. Rather than removing the defence of "artistic merit" for child pornographers, the Liberals simply repackaged the old law by including a new defence where child pornography may be deemed to serve the "public good" - which may be held to include the loophole of "artistic merit".

"We will pass legislation that will adopt a zero tolerance for child porn, eliminating the so-called "public good" defence."

Note that the existing definition of child pornography.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/c-46/41976.html

163.1 (1) In this section, "child pornography" means

(a) a photographic, film, video or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means,

(i) that shows a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity, or

(ii) the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region of a person under the age of eighteen years; or

(b) any written material or visual representation that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of eighteen years that would be an offence under this Act.

So a "zero tolerance" of child porn would result in the banning of works listed by Seeker.

[notyoueither]

Nowhere in that does it say that classical literature or art would be banned. Nor a discussion of the shortcomings of historical figures. Try again.

[Tingkai]

How do you define zero tolerance?

How do you define child pornography?

Put the two together and the result is a ban on works of art like R&J or the Tin Drum.

[notyoueither]

for a sexual purpose

that advocates or counsels sexual activity

I don't know, Tingkai, but I think I would read the law and see that no definition of 'public good' is required to keep good books on the shelves of our local libraries.

[notyoueither]

Unless, do you think Greek pottery is urging us to rape children?

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by St Leo

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
'Proven' wrong in 1984, perhaps, but what about now when we have better hindsight?

The US is a hollow shell of its former glory as a direct result of Reaganomics. It will collapse the moment white collar jobs are outsourced offshore. The cracks of the colossal Reagan deficits aren't helping.

The former glory of stagflation and gas lines?

I was alive then. I remember.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
for a sexual purpose

that advocates or counsels sexual activity

I don't know, Tingkai, but I think I would read the law and see that no definition of 'public good' is required to keep good books on the shelves of our local libraries.

Remember that 1960s or early 70s Romeo & Juliet. It showed them having sex and showed them nude. That would violate the law, except that it is exclude by the artistic merit/public good clause.

That film would have to be censored if we took a "zero tolerance" approach.

Or what happens if there is ancient artwork showing "a person who is or is depicted as being under the age of eighteen years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual activity"

Obviously, the artistic merit/public good defence is required.

The Conservatives are trying to score cheap political points by claiming that the Liberals and the NDP are soft on child porn.

The re-issued Conservative press release says:
"Today, Martin says he's against child pornography. But his voting record proves otherwise."

It goes on to note that Mr. Martin voted against an opposition motion two years ago to prohibit the creation and use of child pornography.

What Martin (and NDP) opposed was the instituting of a "zero tolerance" approach and the elimination of artistic merit/public good. They did that because they recognised the need to exclude works of art from prosecution.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
The former glory of stagflation and gas lines?

I was alive then. I remember.

Those problems were not eliminated by Reaganomics.

When oil prices rose in the 1970s, new oil fields came online because it was now profitable to pump oil from them. But that took time so initially there were gas lines. Also, the western economies began developing more machines that were more fuel efficient. These two factors broke OPEC's ability to drastically reduce oil supplies.

Stagflation was largely the result of the massive increase in oil prices. With the stabilisation of oil prices and the decision by central banks to stop inflation, stagflation disappeared.

Reagan's economic policies had nothing to do with this.

[notyoueither]

Artistic merit/public good is not at all needed to protect classical and accepted works. Educated public opinion will. It is needed to protect modern day perps who get their jollies by writing about sex with children.

Face it. The Liberals and NDP supported repackaging the same law that had just kicked a paedophile. You won't have horns as a result, but you may have to admit that it is not the best policy to adopt.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Those problems were not eliminated by Reaganomics.

He didn't say they were. He was commenting on the 'former glory' bit, but feel free to continue.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Artistic merit/public good is not at all needed to protect classical and accepted works. Educated public opinion will. It is needed to protect modern day perps who get their jollies by writing about sex with children.

Face it. The Liberals and NDP supported repackaging the same law that had just kicked a paedophile. You won't have horns as a result, but you may have to admit that it is not the best policy to adopt.

Adding the "public good" clause closes the loophole for actual child pornography.

Like I said before, either Harper knows that and he's making a promise he has no intention of keeping or he doesn't understand basic law. Either way, he ends up looking bad.

[Seeker]

"Educated public opinion will......"



this is why I love the canadian judicial system...so far we've been effective at keeping American-style 'educated public opinion' as a basis for criminal conduct out of our system.

the day we elect judges directly will be the end of traditional canada.

[Wezil]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Adding the "public good" clause closes the loophole for actual child pornography.

Yet to be tested.

Like I said before, either Harper knows that and he's making a promise he has no intention of keeping or he doesn't understand basic law. Either way, he ends up looking bad.

Btw, anyone want to tell me why use of the notwithstanding clause is wrong? I asked earlier but got no takers.....