Star TreK Enterprise

[Q Classic]

Not that trek is even about timelines anyway. I thought it was about adventure, morals, and some action, and hell some jolene blalock (uhura set that precedent wink wink nudge nudge). You know, if these timeline things affected the morals and themes (and they might in a show like B5) then I'd get it.

there's clearly no point in arguing about it with you, because you fail to see that while it might not bother you, it does bother plenty of other people.

in ST they are just trivia and as such irrelevant. besides ST is extremely geeky. don't make it geekier by being bookish about it, studs

if i cared about geekiness, i wouldn't be posting in this thread, nor wearing it on my sleeve.

[Pax]

It's clear that is does bother a lot of other people. The question is should it.
Can anyone remember the saturday night live skit when william shatner was being questioned at a trek convention? He was like get a life it's a television show.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Kucinich

SW just has much more advanced civlization - it's supposed to be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years in the future.

You mean the past.


EDIT: Dur, beaten by Ozzy.

[Dr Strangelove]

While I'm still watching Enterprise faithfully I admit it has a number of flaws that hamper it. The overuse of time travel is definately one of them, particularily when you consider that in TOS the few episodes in which time travel occured where portrayed as accidental and essentially first time events. I initially liked the way they portrayed the Vulcans as being not necessarily so benevolent and somewhat hypocritical, but what they've done with T'Pol this season is rather lame. In fact this whole season has been one giant mistake.

Spike TV has been running the old DS 9 series for the past month. The contrast is incredible. The character development was terrific, the scripts were well written, and they achieved a nice balance between an overall plot that evolved throughout the seasons and individual shows which had their own self-contained plots.

For myself I would rank Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 as the two best TV Sci-Fi series. I would put Farscape down near the bottom. Someone with Crighton's adolescent temperment would never make it through NASA's training program even if his Dad was a high ranking officer.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
While I'm still watching Enterprise faithfully I admit it has a number of flaws that hamper it. The overuse of time travel is definately one of them, particularily when you consider that in TOS the few episodes in which time travel occured where portrayed as accidental and essentially first time events. I initially liked the way they portrayed the Vulcans as being not necessarily so benevolent and somewhat hypocritical, but what they've done with T'Pol this season is rather lame. In fact this whole season has been one giant mistake.

Spike TV has been running the old DS 9 series for the past month. The contrast is incredible. The character development was terrific, the scripts were well written, and they achieved a nice balance between an overall plot that evolved throughout the seasons and individual shows which had their own self-contained plots.

For myself I would rank Deep Space 9 and Babylon 5 as the two best TV Sci-Fi series. I would put Farscape down near the bottom. Someone with Crighton's adolescent temperment would never make it through NASA's training program even if his Dad was a high ranking officer.

I avoided Farscape like the plague until recently. John Crichton was my main reason. I was drawn in after watching one episode late at night. The show is to good has too many unique ideas to dismiss based on Crichton. The complexity of the Scorpius character is refreshing. The references to shakespeare. The funny cultural misunderstandings. It's a great show. Crichton can grow on you. He grew on the aliens that at first did not like or trust him.
They also mention on a regular basis that Crichton is not your typical astronaut. In fact, he is a scientist testing out his on experiment. So without Crichton, no Farscape in the first place. That's how he got into space.

[joncha]

Crichton's character is brillant... he starts off wide-eyed and in wonder of his predicament, but becomes increasingly unhinged as the series wears on. Given all he goes through (even without the all the monkeying around with his brain), I find it highly believable.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by joncha
Crichton's character is brillant... he starts off wide-eyed and in wonder of his predicament, but becomes increasingly unhinged as the series wears on. Given all he goes through (even without the all the monkeying around with his brain), I find it highly believable.

I thought he started off as a 15 year old trying to protray an astronaut. Maybe I just didn't like the "punk" atmosphere the show eventually developed.

[Pax]

Can you elaborate Dr. Strangelove?

[Gatekeeper]

I, too, wish ST:E would focus less on the Temporal Cold War (i.e. time travel episodes) and more on state of Earth, its allies and the Alpha Quadrant leading up to the formation of the United Federation of Planets.

Suffice to say, the twist in ST:E's season finale was enough to provoke both my interest and ire. I would like to think that the alien Nazi is a Reman soldier, but knowing TPTB, that won't be the case. It's probably nothing more than re-used makeup and costuming.

In related areas, I'm happy to be able to catch STS9 on SpikeTV, although the cable channel is starting to become hit-and-miss in terms of scheduling. Gee, no surprise there. I don't like tuning into Spike, expecting to see DS9, only to find a stupid first-season TNG episode from 1987 airing in its place.

BTW, does anyone have a link to the Official Dominion War Guide as quoted by obstructor?

I used to like Andromeda ... but it's *really* gone to crap since the end of S2.

I still enjoy Stargate:SG-1, although its Atlantis spin-off has me concerned, because it looks, well, a bit too derivative.

I enjoy SW as well, especially so the Expanded Universe (EU) novels and whatnot.

Never really got into Farscape, Lexx (the commercials alone were enough to drive me away) or Firefly (a space western? C'mon!).

Gatekeeper

[FlameFlash]

Bah, Wiglaf. Just because I appreciated the reasons why it could be acceptable (Federation First Contact vs. Earth First Contact) doesn't mean that Archer and the NX-01 is any good.

Now whatever that guy's name who played Archer is great, I'm a fan. Watched the show for him originally, but I just couldn't get into it. Too much was familiar to start of with (Risa anyone?) and then it just started going downhill, especially with the whole 'this one captain's fate will impact all the crews, ships, and other captains you've ever known' crap in the promos.

That means even they buy into the timeline, which means that even if a fan can rationalize it, doesn't make it better. I just happened to appreciate all the fan rationalizations (and especially the ST RPG book's Klingon rationalization. )

Oh... and just to weigh in on the whole SW vs. ST thing: they're different genre's

What part of "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..." makes it Sci-Fi?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kucinich

B5 in general was closer to scientific reality than the other two- not perfetc, but certainly closer. SW does not even try, since it is scif fi only in the whole "set in space" part, but otherwise is fantasy really.

SW just has much more advanced civlization - it's supposed to be tens, if not hundreds of thousands of years in the future.

Not really. Both B5 and ST have aliens far more advanced than individuals in Star Wars. The first ones in B5 are millions of years old, and have technologies such as living ships that are way beyond SW technology if you think about it. The Vorlons went so far as to become beings of mainly energy. ST goes even further-they have the Q, beings who can control the universe at will.

ST of course horribly handles the Q, who are so powerful as to really be boring, or bad plot points. And B5 does not give its advanced aliens the same level of ridiculous power Lucas created in SW. I forget who said that technology advanced enough might as well be magic (somethign B5 handles with the technomages)-well, SW does that, and in doing so really comes closer to fantasy-though I already have stated why I think SW bare if at all should be counted as sci fi.

I like Farscape-I think many of the characters are interesting-but the series took some weird turns in writing, so I don not enjoy it as much as I would an episode of Voyager, even thought I know farscape is a better show.

I think andromeda has camp value-and SG1 bores me. I have never been able to enjoy that show. I don't find the universe it created convincing, the aliens interesting, the humans interesting.

B5, Ds9 and ST:NG are my favorites, and in that order.

[Saint Marcus]

Staff turnover-so what? People die, specially in wars.

As I recall, in B5, of the main characters only Marcus died.

MIlitary people are at the mercy of the higher ups- the fact is that the stability of ST crews is the anomily, not the fact an Ambassador might change attaches.

I'm not saying it's not realistic...I'm saying it's bad story writing. Having a bunch of characters in the credits, give them their own episodes to star in, and then write them off a few eps later. It doesn't help the viewer to really get into the characters, since most leave before we get a chance to warm up to them.

Also, some of the changes had no real reason. P5 telepath turning super-telepath Talia got replaced by P5 telepath turning super telepath Lyta. Stupid. (especially after Ironheart-God said he could see everything yet not notice Talia reprogramming)

Second, the Shadow cloud could have destroyed his entire fleet without impunity.

A few episoded prior, a SMALLER fleet commanded by Sheridan did beat the Shadows. Sure, Sheridan lost 2 ships for every Shadow vessel he destroyed, but that's not that bad! The Russian in WW2 lost (I think) more than 5 tanks for every German tank they destroyed (and still won the war).

As for levels of destruction- The levels of destruction for the Shadow war are much heavier-whole planets and many colonies gone. In DS9 the powers were exhausted- in B5 there was the chance of them being wiped out utterly. Maybe it escapes my mind, but how many homeworlds suffered planetary bombardment?

In B5, none of the homeworlds of mayor powers got attacked or destroyed by either Shadows or Vorlons. Only the Centauri faced the chance of being wiped out completely, and even they in the end didn't lose a single ship or planet against the Vorlons. The Minbari weren't attacked even once I believe. Nor was the Earth Alliance. The Shadow war for Earth and Minbar was a lot like 1940s America. Sure, the Germans attacked some merchant vessels, but all in all the country wasn't under a direct threath. In DS9, ALL of the mayor powers got directly involved in the war. All of them lost men, ships, colonies and worlds. All of them suffered greatly. In B5, only the Narn suffered, and mainly by the Centauri, not the Shadows directly. And NO big worlds were attacked or destroyed by the Shadows or Vorlons. Just minor worlds and colonies and outposts. In total body count, the Shadow War did cost more than the Dominion War, however, looking at the total cost of the war for the mayor powers, the Dominion War cost way more than the Shadow War. After the Dominion War, Cardassia was nearly destroyed. Earth got bombed and lost millions of people, same goes for other Federation homeworlds. The Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire were crippled. The Dominion lost all it's holdings in the Alpha Quadrant. The Breen, most likely, suffered severe losses too. On the other hand, in B5, during the Shadow War, the Minbari Empire hardly lost anything. The Earth Alliance hardly lost anything. The Centauri gained from it even! At least the Shadow War of a 1000 years prior, did cost all the participants dearly. But this time around, the war ended before any real damage was done. I felt less the sense of loss and accomplishment caused by the end of the Shadow War, than by the end of the Dominian War.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by GePap


Not really. Both B5 and ST have aliens far more advanced than individuals in Star Wars. The first ones in B5 are millions of years old, and have technologies such as living ships that are way beyond SW technology if you think about it. The Vorlons went so far as to become beings of mainly energy. ST goes even further-they have the Q, beings who can control the universe at will.

Negative. Even the First Ones in B5 are markably Inferior to the SW Galactic Standard in tech.

And "Organic Ships" does not indicate advance tech. It indicates studitiy. sd.net best put it...


"Captain, I'm picking up an approaching ship."

"What can you tell me about it?"

"Oh my God, it's organic! What are we going to do, Captain?"

"There's not much we can do, Ensign. Organic technology is so far beyond our grasp that we can't even imagine the power they must have. All we have is high-powered guns, nuclear missiles, and our primitive metallic armour. What are you reading from their incredibly advanced bio-ship?"

"Their ship is soft and flexible. Its construction materials are semi-permeable and laced with a network of delicate circulation passages. Instead of using impermeable high-density materials, it's made from countless tiny thin-walled cells which tend to rapidly break down in the presence of corrosive chemicals or radiation."

"What? And we were supposed to be afraid of this? Open fire!"

SQUISH ...

[Illuminatus]

EDIT:

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


In B5, none of the homeworlds of mayor powers got attacked or destroyed by either Shadows or Vorlons. Only the Centauri faced the chance of being wiped out completely, and even they in the end didn't lose a single ship or planet against the Vorlons. The Minbari weren't attacked even once I believe. Nor was the Earth Alliance. The Shadow war for Earth and Minbar was a lot like 1940s America. Sure, the Germans attacked some merchant vessels, but all in all the country wasn't under a direct threath. In DS9, ALL of the mayor powers got directly involved in the war. All of them lost men, ships, colonies and worlds. All of them suffered greatly. In B5, only the Narn suffered, and mainly by the Centauri, not the Shadows directly. And NO big worlds were attacked or destroyed by the Shadows or Vorlons. Just minor worlds and colonies and outposts. In total body count, the Shadow War did cost more than the Dominion War, however, looking at the total cost of the war for the mayor powers, the Dominion War cost way more than the Shadow War. After the Dominion War, Cardassia was nearly destroyed. Earth got bombed and lost millions of people, same goes for other Federation homeworlds. The Romulan Star Empire and the Klingon Empire were crippled. The Dominion lost all it's holdings in the Alpha Quadrant. The Breen, most likely, suffered severe losses too. On the other hand, in B5, during the Shadow War, the Minbari Empire hardly lost anything. The Earth Alliance hardly lost anything. The Centauri gained from it even! At least the Shadow War of a 1000 years prior, did cost all the participants dearly. But this time around, the war ended before any real damage was done. I felt less the sense of loss and accomplishment caused by the end of the Shadow War, than by the end of the Dominian War.

IIRC, the number for the most recent Shadow war was Hundreds of Millions lost, with it rapidly becoming obvious that Billions more were going to die in short order.

This was during a conflict that spanned mere months, vice the several year conflict that was the Dominion War. In the end, the Greatest Sufferers were the Cardassians, who sustained 800 million+ deaths on their homeworld.

While grim, such numbers are insignifigant on a Galactic scale. B5 had it right in assuming war's start off slow, than progressively get bloodier.

All the Domimion lost was it's AQ holdings, it held onto it's GQ holdings, many it's still probably the most powerful of all the belligerants. The Breen may have got their expeditionary force trashed, but there is nothing to indicate the AQ powers made a drive for the Breen capital.

The Klingons are probably the most ****ed of the major allies, as they were fighting the Cardassians/Domimion on their own for quite some time. Only the mass transit of hundreds of Domimion warships spurred the Federation into action.

The Romulans actually appear to have came through with the least amount of casulties.