An Intellectual Discussion About Killing Babies

[bipolarbear]

Good Night Ben. I liked our discussion.

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm all for that. Keep contraception and criminalise abortion. Improve the reproductive health of women.

Pah. I think a one-step approach would be self-defeating. It would be wiser to work towards the kind of a benevolent socialist society where the need for this medical procedure you dislike so much never arises.


Going back to my earlier point, I'll revise my wording a little.

An adult dolphin is my equal. A foetus of my species... just isn't. An adult chimp is my equal. A human foetus isn't.

Fundamentally, species really isn't very relevant. Once something becomes sapient, it gets certain rights out of common decency. It would do the same for me, or so I would hope.

If you want to travel in time and preclude me from existing via abortion, go right ahead.

If you want to travel in time and preclude me from existing via homicide, please don't.

[bipolarbear]

If you want to travel in time and preclude me from existing via homicide, please don't.

Time and space unless you too are neighbors or roommates.

[Aeson]

All I seem to get, is that consciousness ought to be the standard, but when pressed, you waffle to something that sounds better. You say that one can detect brain waves at 8 weeks, and then I ask if that is not proof of consciousness, then what counts?

I can't be held responsible for your your lack of reading comprehension.

I said I think consciousness should be the standard. Please quote where I have 'waffled' and said it shouldn't.

I said I don't know when consciousness occurs. Please quote where I have 'waffled' and said I do.

I said brain waves are detectable at 8 weeks. Please quote where I have 'waffled' and said they are not.

As for what I feel constitutes proof of consciousness, see my last post where I outlined it. If you want to argue about what constitutes proof, feel free.

Sure, you don't want to say that any abortions should be banned before the third trimester because of the possibility that the child may not have consciousness.

Again, I haven't said that. My statements about the law are that it should reflect consensus or compromise between the varying opinions on the subject. In cases such as this where there is so much uncertainty, the law should draw the line where those factors are best represented. I don't know where that is either, as I haven't been polling on the subject.

But that's looking at things backwards. Is it not more correct to say that we should not kill a child because he or she may have consciousness after all?

That's the only point I've been trying to make for some time, but I'm unsure as to why you think I'm trying to trap you.

I don't think you are trying to trap me. Please quote where I have said that I do. I have said you are misquoting me. You continue to do it.

And your attempt to make that point is inane, as it is what you are disagreeing with in the first place.

Here is my opinion on the matter once again:

When dealing with a human life, I think you have to err on the side of caution.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I hope you are not offended. I'm not trying to be dishonest, merely clarifying points I find problematic in your argument.

You would find those points less problematic if you would read them in context of the sentence, paragraph, post, and discussion.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So people who are currently unconscious are no longer persons?

Bah, strawman

I found your arguments strangely contradictory. At times you arguments are overly narrow, while other times your arguments are overly broad.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


There are some real points. Laws influence morality. What one legislates often becomes morally correct, regardless of the true state. In banning abortion, you can drastically reduce the numbers performed. Poland has seen this in their own abortion rates, they have seen a substantial drop since they recriminalised abortion.

Now, another argument goes along the lines that there will always be people who murder each other. Does that mean we should not have any laws against murder?

Actually, the OFFICIAL number of abortions dropped. They are being done in private clinics (illegally) or women are going behind the border