Vanunu Goes Free

[GePap]

PLATO:

The US would have no right for any ultimatum period-we can't threaten states for actions totally within their sovereign rights, even if we dislike them. An attack of ours short of invasion would NOT end their drive for nukes, and in the end only assure Iran did get nukes at the end, simply to avoid another US attack.

Unless the US wants to claim states can go to war solely becuase their inetrest warrant it. Which of course would be to retroactively santion both of Saddam's invasions, since both were well within his sphere of interests.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap
PLATO:

The US would have no right for any ultimatum period-we can't threaten states for actions totally within their sovereign rights, even if we dislike them. An attack of ours short of invasion would NOT end their drive for nukes, and in the end only assure Iran did get nukes at the end, simply to avoid another US attack.

Unless the US wants to claim states can go to war solely becuase their inetrest warrant it. Which of course would be to retroactively santion both of Saddam's invasions, since both were well within his sphere of interests.

I agree that they would have no legal right. Nonetheless...

[GePap]

They do matter-as the huge problem in Iraq shows today. Legitimacy of action matters. As I said, only a fully invasion would really allow the US to end fully any nuclear program-that would not occur. So any US attack or ultimatum would simply excelarate the drive to get them. Look at the fact the US has not had the legitimacy to think about hading NK an ultimatum for doing the very same thing.

Besides, the US would probalby not even be able to tell when Iran got nukes-just as we failed to catch the USSR, Israel, Pakistan, India, and North Korea.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap
They do matter-as the huge problem in Iraq shows today. Legitimacy of action matters. As I said, only a fully invasion would really allow the US to end fully any nuclear program-that would not occur. So any US attack or ultimatum would simply excelarate the drive to get them. Look at the fact the US has not had the legitimacy to think about hading NK an ultimatum for doing the very same thing.

Besides, the US would probalby not even be able to tell when Iran got nukes-just as we failed to catch the USSR, Israel, Pakistan, India, and North Korea.

Legitamacy? What would the world reaction be if we had KNOWN that Saddam had nukes? You wouldn't see the problems you see now...that's for sure.

My guess is that the world would come up with some way to make it legit for the US to clean up the problem, be happy we did it, and chastize us for being unilateral.

[Gibsie]

So have the Israelis acknowedged this chap as a hero yet for revealing to their arab neighbours that Israel has this great deterrent?

[Az]

So?

why would Iran, dictatorship or not, NOT need nukes?

Are you saying If Israel make a final peacedeal with Syria, it will dismantle its nukes?

I am not saying that they don't need nukes! They sure as hell need them! I mean, Israel, and Pakistan, and Russia, and the US... With such a adventurous ( is that a neutral word? I don't want to spark a meaningless debate) administration in the White House, you can never be too safe! If I am Ayatollah #1, I'll sure do whatever I can to get them.

That doesn't mean that I am not a supporter of bombing the **** ouf of their nuclear program, if possible.

[GePap]

Originally posted by PLATO


Legitamacy? What would the world reaction be if we had KNOWN that Saddam had nukes? You wouldn't see the problems you see now...that's for sure.

Yes, but Saddam having nukes would have been against international law. If iran left the NPT it would not be illegal for them to have it.

My guess is that the world would come up with some way to make it legit for the US to clean up the problem, be happy we did it, and chastize us for being unilateral.

I highly doubt it-no one was willing to Bat for Saddam becuase he was isolated and in the penalty box already. Iran is not, and I doubt the US would even get basing rights to invade Iran.

[Az]

So have the Israelis acknowedged this chap as a hero yet for revealing to their arab neighbours that Israel has this great deterrent?

The arabs know that for quite some time before Vaanunu.

[Agathon]

At the same time, he was studying philosophy at Ben Gurion University, which many experts say contributed to a change in ideals.

Looks like he's another one of ours.

Good on him. Nuclear weapons suck and the possession of them by rogue states like Israel is even worse.

Isn't it funny that someone with the moniker "PLATO" should be expounding a "might is right" philosophy, one that his famous namesake refuted in the Gorgias and Republic.

Come to think of it, Vanunu was probably reading those works.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by Agathon


Isn't it funny that someone with the moniker "PLATO" should be expounding a "might is right" philosophy, one that his famous namesake refuted in the Gorgias and Republic.

No, no. You misunderstand. I didn't say it was right...just that it was reality.

[Agathon]

No, no. You misunderstand. I didn't say it was right...just that it was reality.

Not true either. People have largely learned that it is a self defeating set of values, as will the Israelis in time.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap


So?

why would Iran, dictatorship or not, NOT need nukes?

Are you saying If Israel make a final peacedeal with Syria, it will dismantle its nukes?

Will the UK or France dismantle their nukes? They've got far less direct threat on them then Israel does, even with a peace treaty with Syria.

[Edan]

DP

[Edan]

As to declaring nukes for deterrence - while declaring it would give more deterrent power, Israel already had enough deterrent powers when the leaders of certain countries were aware of the capability. Declaring it for the world would almost be like "gloating" (especially if you only intend to use the nukes as a last resort) and would just exacerbate tensions and put more pressure on those countries (especially pressure from it's peoples) to develop their own nukes - which would significantly lower the detterent power. Just look at history - US gets nukes, Russia, England, France and lastly China hurry up and get their own. Same thing with India/Pakistan.

[Agathon]

It's worth knowing for the hypocrisy value alone.