UK to hold Referendum on EU "Constitution"

[Dauphin]

Repeat it all you want, but few if any here are claiming the EU to be a federal government.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
How many times before we develop a consistency? We have the fact it took two rulings against the French government before they relented

Which ones are you talking about? France has performed poorly in much, much more than 2 issues. [url="http://www.curia.eu.int/en/actu/activites/act99/9926en.htm"]In this page only[/ul], there are at least three cases where France has been seen as guilty for basly implementing a EU decision. One I know better than the others is the problem with car retailers: French car retailers are bound with one brand (right next to my home, there is a Peugeot retailer, that only sells Peugeots); this system will soon disappear with EU laws. Same for car insurance: we have a system where the customer pays higher premiums if he has more accidents, and lower premieums if he has fewer; this is also unlawful by EU standards.
It is normal for a country to take time applying EU standards, and every country is acknowledged as guilty for not implementing decisions quickly enough.

the French President openly insulting new EU members

Chirac is an incometent and arrogant assmonkey, but how is it any unlawful?

the French government is blatantly violating the Stability pact

The EU institutions wanted to corner us, but have been protected by the council, meaing a majority of countries backed France + Germany. I don't see the same majority of countries suddenly deciding we cannot take part to European decisions anymore

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kucinich
Until it is more than a confederation of States, it is not a viable federal government.

It took us so long to discover we were in complete agreement?

I dread the fact we are a miserly confederacy. I want a glorious federation, which we are absolutely not.

[Sandman]

I want a glorious federation, which we are absolutely not.

I prefer an inglorious confederation. Glory was what millions of young men went off to find in August 1914.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Dauphin
Repeat it all you want, but few if any here are claiming the EU to be a federal government.

Right. Exactly. That's my point.

[Dauphin]

You seem to think your point proves something, it doesn't. EU laws are still laws.

[Kuciwalker]

Laws with no power... kind of like... treaties! Seriously, it isn't a law if it cannot be enforced.

[Dauphin]

As has been stated before EU laws have been enforced.

[Kuciwalker]

No, they've been complied with. A difference. For example, would you say the UN dues are a "law"? The US hasn't paid them yet.

[ElTigre]

Originally posted by Kucinich
It just didn't work. Unless and until the EU gains the power of direct taxation of its citizens, it governs each only through its consent. Until it is more than a confederation of States, it is not a viable federal government.

There is a (small) European tax:

The "own resources" are revenues from levies on agricultural imports, customs duties on other imports and a slice of value-added tax income .These are all forms of tax which cannot be said to belong to a particular member state. For example, goods on which customs duty is paid in Hamburg may - thanks to the EU's single market - actually be destined for an importer in Naples.The member state collecting the money acts only as a service provider for a common EU policy (and gets to keep a share of the money as payment for acting as the collection agent).

Paying For Europe

[Kuciwalker]

Wait, do you pay taxes to the EU, or do the member states pay a portion of their income, determined by the incomes of their inhabitants?

[ElTigre]

Both.

A small part of the national value-added taxes is payed directly to the EU. More than two-thirds of the EU's income, however, are contributions of the member states.

[Dauphin]

No, they've been complied with. A difference. For example, would you say the UN dues are a "law"? The US hasn't paid them yet.

Are 'dues payments' frameworked as a law? Is the US' lack of payment classed as an illegal act? Is there a mode of recourse, such as through a judicial system, to enforce payment?

[Kuciwalker]

The judiciary is not a mode of enforcement. Being convicted means nothing if you are incapable of compelling me to go to jail. A state enacts laws. A state has sovereignty over its territory. A state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. None of these are true of the EU.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by ElTigre
Both.

A small part of the national value-added taxes is payed directly to the EU. More than two-thirds of the EU's income, however, are contributions of the member states.

I mean when you fill out your taxes, do you fill out a form for the EU, and for your nation? Like in the US, we have federal taxes, and state taxes, and they are seperate.