Doesn't the service industry preclude communist revolt?

[Imran Siddiqui]

The problem is that it isn't really an intellectually coherent doctrine

Communism? Yes, I agree .

The law, at any rate, does not recognize full ownership rights over one's body

The law does not recognize a full (ie, inalienable) right to life either, because you can always choose not to be put on life support (right to not be forced to accept medical treatment).

[Velociryx]

God I love these debates!

Yep....the revolution is coming folks!

Just as soon as all our production is done by space bots on the dark side of the moon, and we siphon the limitless energy of the stars and can zip around in teleporter pads scattered throughout the galaxy.

Stay tuned....I'm sure it's right around the corner...

-=Vel=-

(that's the cute, cuddly thing about the Reds....when you attack previous attempts at the Revolution, they whine that those weren't "real" communism--communism Lite, maybe?--, and then whip out the paper theories of how it's supposed to be, when we get to the point where everything's free, blah blah blah....no proof mind you....none needed, right? Yeah).

[Velociryx]

And since the revolution is so close to fruition, perhaps we could suggest that all the Commies hold their breaths and wait for it?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Thus I am refuted.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And since the revolution is so close to fruition, perhaps we could suggest that all the Commies hold their breaths and wait for it?

-=Vel=-

Who said it is close?Anyone? Please quote freely.

Uh, DUH! That's the situation we're talking about.

You failed to answer the question about you owning a CD factory. Why should the owners of fancy factories churning out these goods not want to make a return on their business? They wouldn't give the goods out for free-how then do they recoup their investments?

They would not sell their good for free-but for a proleteriat no longer able to sell their labor, how do they survive? And if they start giving out the goods for free-what benefit do they gain from ownership of the factory?

[Velociryx]

Ohhh, I dunnno....J. Stalin maybe? You know...big Daddy Red himself?

We've been breathlessly awaiting the looming revolution for...oh....about a century now.



-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

Who said it is close?

Well monkspider continues to assert, very seriously, that a Communist revolution will come about by 2020.

[GePap]

Well, then Vel should take it up with Monk.

[Velociryx]

Vel don't need to, truthfully.

The Red Pony is dead.

The revolution was tried.

It failed.

It was tried some more.

Still failed.

Was tried some more

Yep. Still failed.

And there's always excuses.

Everything from "well, it can't work on a micro level, but only globally" (which is strange because, you know, every other system in the world that works is scalable from little to big), to "oh! But THAT attempt wasn't *really* communism" (interesting tho, that the leaders of the various (failed) revolutions were quick to call it such), to "oh well see, we first need to put space bots on the moon and then...."

Uh huh.

Insanity is doing the same $hit over and over again and expecting different results.

Wake up and smell the coffee...

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

Sorry Vel, but the "revolution" was not tried.

What was done is groups calling themselves the revolutionary vanguard took control of the political system and installed a statis socialist system to speed up the development of the means of production until true communism could be achieved.

What failed was the idea that though political control the economy could reach the necessary stage to allow for the revolution. BUt the notion that the capitalist system is planting the seeds of its eventual destruction have NOT been answered in any significant was yet.

Care to try?

[Velociryx]

Those vanguard revolutionaries are the ones that wrote most of the books you folks preach from.

That's like going into a church and saying that religion has yet to be tried.

Let's see, it was attempted in:

The Soviet Union (spectacular success, as I'm sure you'll agree)

China (started doing better when they began embracing....:: gasp!:: capitalistic ideals

Cuba (an afterthought. hanging on by their fingernails)

and about a gazillion other little tin pot dictatorial $hitholes around the world.

Resounding successes?

None.

Failures?

Plenty.

Care to try?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh and yes. There is little doubt that the existing system sows the seeds for its own (eventual) demise.

That's hardly revolutionary thinking. History demonstrates as much (how many feudal societies are left today and why'd they fail?)

The rest of his largely incoherent ramblings tho, have about as much merit as me trying to hold a conversation on Quantum Mechanics or something else I know beans about.

So yeah....Capitalism will eventually undo itself.

Forgive me if I've a hard time believing that the one and only POSSIBLE result of that will be the glorious revolution.

Of all the possibile futures, that one ain't EVEN on the RADAR.

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

arrgh.

Marx does not call for a revolutionary vanguard. Lenin did. Perhaps you forget the Menshevik, Bolshevik split?

Notice how you point out where it was tried: in poor, undeveloped states. Which certainly were NOT the places in which the means of production have reached their zenith and capitalism has reached the height of its productivity.

Again, so you get it:

Capitalism is laying the seeds of its own destrcution-communism, at least as Marx frist envsioned it, can only occur after Capitalism has reached its peak-hence, trying to build communism in some backwards non-industrialized state is bound to fail.

So again, care to try to answer why Capitalism is NOT laying the seeds of it's won destruction just as Feudalism and Mercantalism did?

[Imran Siddiqui]

BUt the notion that the capitalist system is planting the seeds of its eventual destruction have NOT been answered in any significant was yet.

Marx's lack of foresight about the growth of the middle class (making there more than just 2 classes) seems to throw a massive wrench in anything else he states.

[GePap]

We do not know if the development of a "middle class" is a temporary event or not.

And even with a middle class, it does not preclude massive changes to the economic system. The system can;t survive solely on services-everyone giving everyone else a haircut won't work.