Doesn't the service industry preclude communist revolt?

[OzzyKP]

I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism. Look at Europe now (or 20 years ago), state owned industries, huge welfare states, etc. Communism creeps in slowly, as the government takes over more and more of society until there is nothing left and a communist state exists.

Sure thats not Marxism, but it looks like thats whats happening to me.

[JohnT]

Iain Banks has it correct: Communism will be a great system when we are able to tap stars for energy sources, machines do all physical labor, nanotechnology provides all, and people are bored and well-fed. Until then, we need Capitalism to get us there.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism.

No, it's definately a delay. The existence of a workers state in the East meant that the threat of was real. Revolution could happen. Welfare reforms were grduingly given up by the capitalists in order to hold on to the rest of their power. Better to lose 50% than to lose 100%.

As long as the workers have enough to eat, have decent housing, access to health care, and are reasonably secure in their future, they aren't very likely to revolt (though Mai '68 shows it's not impossible).

Now that the USSR's collapsed, the welfare states are busy trying to figure out how to take these reforms back.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
As long as the workers have enough to eat, have decent housing, access to health care, and are reasonably secure in their future, they aren't very likely to revolt (though Mai '68 shows it's not impossible).

One should not idealize Mai '68 for what it isn't. On the one hand, there were middle-class students having fun at their revolution (with a small core of serious revolutionaries), in order to shake the dull French society, and on the other hand, there were major strikes from workers demanding better working consitions. All in all, it was much more aimed at making the welfare society better, than at switching to another economic model altogether.

[GePap]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I don't see welfare so much as a delay of communism, but a step towards communism. Look at Europe now (or 20 years ago), state owned industries, huge welfare states, etc. Communism creeps in slowly, as the government takes over more and more of society until there is nothing left and a communist state exists.

That is not communism, and it is silly how many times people need to be told that, over and over and over and over.

[Sava]

Originally posted by GePap


That is not communism, and it is silly how many times people need to be told that, over and over and over and over.

well, you can't cure stupid... so don't even try.

[JohnT]

Says a person who has rejected every cure known to Man.

[Sava]

no, I keep cure for cancer and get +1 happy in each city

[OzzyKP]

Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

[JohnT]

Duh! That's neo-Communism, not Communism!

[OzzyKP]

Ah, of course.

Would that make Keanu Reeves their enlightened dictator?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

WHOAHH! Dude its like total communism except its not.

[Kontiki]

Ozzy, I'm curious - in which European states does the government own more means of production now than they did, say 25 years ago?

[Sava]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

In real Communism, there is no government.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Ok, well when the government owns all the industry a.k.a. means of production, what would you call it?

Statist socialism, although such did not happen in western Europe. The most 'socialist' country of western Europe (Statist actually), France, was called a "mixed economy" because the very large private sector was complemented with State-owned majors.

Welfare is not communism by any standards, because it doesn't act upon the "who owns the means of production" question. Welfare and capitalism can meld together very well, and all social-democrats on this planet support such a model. It is possible to have a welfare State with a very tiny public sector (Bismarck's Germany comes to mind, but postwar Germany comes to mind as well)