The most depressing "conversation" I've had in a while

[monolith94]

Christianity, of course, is not without its fair share of problems. I much prefer the Islamic idea of Satan "Eblis" to the Satan our society has created, for example. I have great respect for the Sufis. However, there is simply too much rigidity and too many rules for me to really get into Islam. I admire some parts of it, but it just doesn't work for me.

[Evil Knevil]

A lot of the Islamic rules are actually based on the saying (hadiths) of Muhammad, and of varying reliability. Many reject a lot of those sayings and instead try and stick to the Koran.
The famouse Islamic lawschools that created the Sharia largely worked from the Hadith and the umma, or community decision, meaning that their rulings often had nothing to do with Religion.

[GePap]

Like all religions, islam is more than the one book, writen by how many men or committees, that is ascribed as the source-it was modified and codified by different tribes as it spread, and a lot of its rules were latter additions with some guy saying "you know, I really like this religion, except for the part about X", and then part X gets changed to make it more palpatable.

[Evil Knevil]

GePap, are you talking about the Koran being modified and codified?

[Drake Tungsten]

United Methodist Church

[Al B. Sure!]

Also Muslims are normally only allowed 3 wifes, not four like you incorrectly describe. Except during times of war, where men are allowed to 'marry' widows to protect and support them, in much the same way Muhammad did.

actually, a few lines in the koran concerning the prohibition of marriages with certain women (siblings, daughters, etc.) sheds some light on the nature of islamic polygamy. one line prohibits marriage with one of your wives' step-daughter unless the marriage with the step-daugther's mother has not be consummated. in that line from the surah called "Women", apparently of the small percentage of muslims who engage in polygamy, many do not even have sex with their wives but rather, marrying these women is equivalent to adoption.

As for violence, there is no doubt that Jesus' message was far more peaceful than Mohammed's. Jesus demanded people to forgive each other, to turn the other cheek, to give a cloak to a thief who has stolen from you, etc. Islam quite explicitly says you have the right to retaliate if a wrong has been committed against you.

Islam, however, though less peaceful than Christianity, is also more tolerant. That Christians and Jews who live goods lives will go to heaven is never doubted, whereas Christians say quite explicitly that salvation is only possible through the acceptance of Jesus as one's saviour.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
In my experience, a good number of people who take religion classes are usually not interested in approaching such issues with an open mind any way. So don't be too disheartened.

This is very true.

My school was full of these types, I couldn't stand it.


One girl whose opinion I normally respect responded one time to a religious debate I had with her, "those religions all ripped off Chrisitianity!!!"

I was trying to get her explanations for:

1) Why all non Chrisitans are going to burn in hell

2) How in the hell most gays "choose" to be gay even though there are people in this world such as hermaphrodites, people who have NEITHER sex organs, etc.

[Al B. Sure!]

yeah the whole salvation is only possible through Jesus thing is real detrimental to Christian tolerance. the early Baptists were probably the only denomination to declare that other paths to God were valid besides through Jesus and look what happened to that...

[Ted Striker]

the old Baptists did that?

Whoah, talk about irony...

[Al B. Sure!]

Ted:

it all goes back to Roger Williams who, by the way created the idea of the american indians as 'noble savages'

Roger Williams left England during the persecutions led by Archbishop William Laud. When he arrived in Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1631, he was offered the pastorate of the Congregational church in Boston. He decline the position because his "conscience was persuaded against the national church." He was soon banished from the colony for voicing the conviction that the authorities "cannot without a spiritual rape force the consciences of all to one worship."

Banished in the winter of 1636, Roger Williams found a tribe of Native Americans more hospitable than the Puritans of New England. He purchased Rhode Island from the natives, started a town called Providence, and formed the first Baptist church in America in 1638/39. Then Williams and another Baptist, John Clarke, worked for fourteen years to secure a charter for the Colony of Rhode Island that would guarantee religious liberty for all the colony's inhabitants. It was the first charter in the world that secured "a free, full, and absolute liberty of conscience."

True Baptists are not baptized until their teenage years (hence, why they are called baptists) because Roger Williams disliked the practice of baptizing infants and children because he saw no sense in it. a child did not have the reason to decide that Christ was his saviour. only when one is mature enough to rationally decide that Christ is his path may one join the baptist church.

of course this has changed dramatically and baptists are now baptized as infants. when i tell baptists that the founder of their denomination was against infant baptism, they say that mere men can not decide such things. bull**** modern baptists.

[Ted Striker]

Very interesting

Never knew the source of the word Baptist!

[Al B. Sure!]

it is very bothersome to me how baptists have desecrated perhaps the most tolerant christian denomination and the denomination whose beliefs had a massive impact on the forming of the American ethos that led to our liberal democracy.

i guess the baptists (especially in cities) have grown very defensive what with them being up against catholics, jahovah's witnesses, and since the 1960's, muslims. baptists now devote all their religious knowledge in defaming catholics, jahovah's witnesses, and muslims. it's disgusting.

[MRT144]

haha, dude albert, "what with" always makes me crack up when you type it.

[Al B. Sure!]

why?

[Dis]

that's what happens when you take a class about religion.

All Religions are crap. You have to expect fanatics.