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They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

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  • #61
    Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

    Originally posted by chegitz guevara
    Tomorrow, April 7, 2004, is the tenth anniversery of beginning of the Ruandan genocide. For 100 days, the world stood watching as Hutus slaughtered 800,000 of their neighbors, the Tutsis. The world refused to help.
    Why should we help slaughter Tutsis?

    As I understand it, the Hutus had been oppressed by the Tutsis for decades. Where's you revolutionary solidarity now, Comrade?

    Revolution? Stick it up your arse.
    Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
    "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

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    • #62
      Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

      Originally posted by Cruddy
      As I understand it, the Hutus had been oppressed by the Tutsis for decades. Where's you revolutionary solidarity now, Comrade?
      False.
      If you don't like reality, change it! me
      "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
      "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
      "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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      • #63
        Originally posted by GePap
        The rwanda killing was not war related. The government of rwanda used the ongoing war as a excuse for a planned, premaditated campaing of mass killing-they distributed weapons, they told the killers were to go find victims-this is plain and simple genocide.
        And this is supposed to be an argument against that most killing is not war related?
        Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

        It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
        The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

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        • #64
          Last Conformist

          If you look at Datajack Franit's bizarre post you will see why discussing the numbers killed in atrocities rapidly becomes arid.

          As for the notion that less would die if individual nation states took it upon themselves to be their brother's keeper and intervened to prevent atrocities the trouble with that is they don't. They are just not altruistic entities.

          We must give up war between nation states. The numbers you post chillingly illustrate why.

          Comment

          • #65
            Originally posted by GePap
            Are you having problems understanding?
            It's both vaguely defined and not uniformly applied even by the UN itself. Hence my not understanding why such a thing should even be considered a legal basis for invasion much less a moral one.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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            • #66
              Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

              Originally posted by GePap


              False.
              Then why the slaughter? Totally unprovoked? I think not.
              Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
              "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

              Comment

              • #67
                Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                Originally posted by Cruddy
                As I understand it, the Hutus had been oppressed by the Tutsis for decades. Where's you revolutionary solidarity now, Comrade?
                You realize president Habyarimana was in power since 1973 before being killed, don't you? And you realize he was a Hutu?
                "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                • #68
                  That nations would give up invading one another as a policy option seems to me about as utopian as that they would altruistically interevene against atrocities.

                  And I cannot bring myself to think it would have been wrong to intervene to stop the Rwandan genocide. If countries, for however selfish reasons, wants to stop mass killings, and can be reasonably expected to inflict much less damage than they prevent, why should we condemn them?
                  Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?

                  It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
                  The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                    Originally posted by Cruddy
                    Then why the slaughter? Totally unprovoked? I think not.
                    Obviously the Nazis were provoked into killing the Jews by previous oppression from Jews then, right?

                    Ethnic hatred need not have such a cause.
                    Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                    • #70
                      Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                      Originally posted by Cruddy
                      Then why the slaughter? Totally unprovoked? I think not.
                      Ethincal hatred. And the genocide was planned. Habyarimana's goons distributed weapons to the Hutu population way in advance. They stirred a hatred similar to the antisemitism of the 30ies. Whether the pres was killed or not, the genocide would have happened anyway, but maybe the surge of violence wouldn't have been so sudden and so visible. Not that the genocide's visibility changed anything to the international community's behaviour
                      "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                      "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                      "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

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                      • #71
                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                        Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                        Obviously the Nazis were provoked into killing the Jews by previous oppression from Jews then, right?

                        Ethnic hatred need not have such a cause.
                        The Nazis believed so, or so I understand they did.

                        If you live in a society where your ethnic background seems a hindrance to advancement, wheras other backgrounds seem more favoured, resentment and violence will follow.

                        Notice the use of the word "seem" in that sentance before you write me off...
                        Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                        "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                        Comment

                        • #72
                          Wasn't the division caused by the belgians? (when it was a colony) They sided with one tribe and made the others slaves, or something.
                          Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                          Do It Ourselves

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                          • #73
                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                            Originally posted by Cruddy
                            The Nazis believed so, or so I understand they did.

                            If you live in a society where your ethnic background seems a hindrance to advancement, wheras other backgrounds seem more favoured, resentment and violence will follow.

                            Notice the use of the word "seem" in that sentance before you write me off...
                            So now you've moved from the Tutsi's actually having oppressed the Hutus into maybe it seemed that way to the Hutus? That is quite a difference when it comes to your snide remarks towards che, n'est-ce pas?
                            Tutto nel mondo è burla

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                            • #74
                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                              Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                              So now you've moved from the Tutsi's actually having oppressed the Hutus into maybe it seemed that way to the Hutus?
                              Are you saying that both communities lived in peace and tranquility until one side decided to totally obliterate the other?

                              Because I don't think it quite started like that.

                              I believe it was inevitable. I believe the roots are many years old. And the idea that the "international community" can prevent such episodes is untrue.

                              Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                              That is quite a difference when it comes to your snide remarks towards che, n'est-ce pas?
                              I resent being told what to think and when to feel guilty about events over which I had no input, or indeed interest.

                              Those that believe in revolution without bloodshed, however, should study R'wanda and try to understand why their idelogies are FALSE.

                              What do expect me to do? Give him a cookie?
                              Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
                              "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: They said "Never Again!" . . . but they lied

                                Originally posted by Cruddy
                                Are you saying that both communities lived in peace and tranquility until one side decided to totally obliterate the other?
                                Don't recall I did...where did this strawman come from?

                                Of course it goes back for ages. But that doesn't mean it was an equal ***-for-tat in which one side had been oppressing the other and then the former oppressors uprose to get revenge. That's not what happened in Rwanda at all. Have you read the history of the country, by any chance? You do realize the Hutus had been in power for decades, right? Spiffor mentioned this above, in fact...

                                Regardless, your claim that the international community could have done nothing to prevent the genocide rings false, in my opinion. Sounds like a cop out to avoid the guilt you claim you don't want to feel. Nothing is inevitable, and when people stand aside and shrug their shoulders when people systematically slaughter millions, that's not right.

                                I don't think you should feel personally guilty (I certainly don't), but I think another look at the world's lack of action here is appropriate, and that we should be doing more to stop these kinds of things.

                                Those that believe in revolution without bloodshed, however, should study R'wanda and try to understand why their idelogies are FALSE.

                                What do expect me to do? Give him a cookie?
                                I expect you not to bait him with an irrelevant strawman. This had nothing to do with a revolution, it was genocide by those in power. Where is all this anti-revolutionary harping coming from, when it's irrelevant to the topic?
                                Tutto nel mondo è burla

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