Powell now doubts Iraq evidence

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by mrmitchell
Bush has let his lies run away with themselfs...were he to come out tomorrow and admit he cheated in 2000, he ignored warnings pre-9/11, he lied about WoMD, etc., etc., I doubt half of the group of ultra-rabid followers he has would ever notice.

And the other half would be trying to justify it while cheering about it.

[DanS]

What naive points of view!

Well, the Bush admin could have found easier lies to go to war, if they were all about lies.

Presidents in the past -- some of our best ones -- have used much dodgier, but infinitely simpler, justifications for war declarations. You know, things that can't really be refuted. The number of people who would have to be in on the lie in this instance is just astronomical. You can't tell thousands of career civil servants to lie, even if it's deep classified. It doesn't work.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanS
My respect for him hasn't waned at all.

You also like Dubya, you you're not exactly a credible source.

I view this whole thing as an error of the intelligence community.

Despite the fact that the intelligence community was waving big red flags saying, "HEY, YO! This intelligence you're pedling is HIGLY SUSPECT!!!!!" With forrmer Pentagon staffers now saying the data was cooked by the OSP, there's little doubt among critically thinking people that this was a failure of politics, not intelligence.

It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

Which doesn't mean thaty they didn't lie, because they have armchair running backs running blocking for them.

[DinoDoc]

But you're a commie. You're not exactly a credible source.

[DanS]

Despite the fact that the intelligence community was waving big red flags saying, "HEY, YO! This intelligence you're pedling is HIGLY SUSPECT!!!!!"

The only part of the justification where this happened was the Niger uranium issue. The other stuff was supported by an intelligence estimate, something like a peer-reviewed report about what the intelligence community thought about Saddam's chemical and biological weapons capabilities.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS

Presidents in the past -- some of our best ones -- have used much dodgier, but infinitely simpler, justifications for war declarations. You know, things that can't really be refuted. The number of people who would have to be in on the lie in this instance is just astronomical. You can't tell thousands of career civil servants to lie, even if it's deep classified. It doesn't work.

False, it includes only a few admins.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
But you're a commie. You're not exactly a credible source.

Care to address my point?

[DanS]

it includes only a few admins.

Well, that stands to reason, considering that the US has been in only a few big wars.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
Well, that stands to reason, considering that the US has been in only a few big wars.

NO, the Bush amdin. the Balir admin., the Aznar admin., the Howard Admin. specifically.

Won't get dragged into your strawmen.

[DanS]

NO, the Bush amdin. the Balir admin., the Aznar admin., the Howard Admin. specifically.

And their respective intelligence and defense civil services. That's the point. The cabal would have taken in thousands, which doesn't seem credible in the day and age of whistleblower laws.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
Care to address my point?

The one about exaggeration on the part of the admin? What do you want me to say? They probably did do a certain amount of that. Personaly, I would have made a point to cite German intelligence though if I were gung ho for war. They were warning of an active nuke program that could have a bomb within 3 years. Just to be a smug bastard during the UNSC debates.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DanS
And their respective intelligence and defense civil services. That's the point.

NO, sorry, but you totally ignored my post:

NONE of these intelliegence agencies ever said to their leaders "we can tell you 100% , cuase we are dead sure, these guys have these weapons in these locations, and they are poised to go off!"

They said "The best intelligence we have, some of it years old, some from possibly questionable sources, make us suspect Iraq still may have stockpiles of WMDs and if we had to guess, we would say they still have some-though we can't be 100% sure".

The administrations then took this and said: Intelligence shows us that it is unquestionable to say Iraq has WMDs today that threaten the free world. We must invade

That was the lie, and no, the intelliegence agencies were not part of it-their fault lies at passing forward questionable info form questionable sources without too much equivication.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
The one about exaggeration on the part of the admin? What do you want me to say? They probably did do a certain amount of that. Personaly, I would have made a point to cite German intelligence though if I were gung ho for war. They were warning of an active nuke program that could have a bomb within 3 years. Just to be a smug bastard during the UNSC debates.

And yet the German government took their words at face value.....

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Pax, there really is that much pressure to conform? Is that a good thing?

Yes there is. Rice (though not Powell, IIRC), is a member of the Black middle-class and has been refered to as a BAP, Black-American Princess. Middle-class Blacks are very different than working and lumpen Blacks. Among the BMC, there is even more pressure to conform, but not to what is typically refered to as "Black" behavior. The BMC, aka, "bourgeois Blacks," there is enormous pressure to succeed educationally, to marry only among your peers (other BMC), speak proper English, etc. etc.

Among Lumpen Black people (and among most Lumpen in general) there is a prohibition against acting "better than what you are." In the Lumpen Black community, this is called "acting white." Education is for losers. Take advantage of the sytem. The world owes you a living. Don't be a sucker, etc. This isn't unique to Black lumpens, but it's the only place where it takes on an overtly racial tinge.

Black lumpens have an inordinate amount of political power in the Black community, however, owing partially to their artisitic, entertainment, and sports talents. They are better able to make themselves heard and to spread their "ideology" in the community. On top of that, because lumpen Blacks scare the bejeezuz outta whites, the white community also pays a lot of attention to what they say. Black proles and middle class are virtually invisible.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
But you're a commie. You're not exactly a credible source.

True dat.