Powell now doubts Iraq evidence

[Pax]

As a black person the more successful you are the more you run the risk of being accused of selling out. I would say that blacks put more pressure on each other to "act black" than any outside group. In the case of Powell and Rice the perception is that they are not doing anything to support their "people". That they shun the "black" political power groups and the groups that would help blacks advance in american society. That they do not attend "black" social political events. To put it mildly. Is the perception reality? I do not know. I do know that there political viewpoints are totally different from my own having nothing to do with whether or not they are sell outs.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
As a black person the more successful you are the more you run the risk of being accused of selling out.

So only unsucessful people can lay claim to being black? I understand now.

[joncha]

No, DD, you clearly don't. Pax said "run the risk." The point is that it is easier to notice when a rich or famous black person is not supporting his or her community.

[DinoDoc]

When exactly would a National Security advisor have cause to support her "community"? As for Powell I fail to see how the founder of a large public service organization can be acused of not helping this mythical community.

As I said earlier, this "acting black" crap stinks of nothing more than patronizing racisim and shock over the fact that someone from an oppressed community might disagree with your views.

[joncha]

Again, you fail to see the point. You asked how it is that some people can be perceived of as not being "black" enough. So you don't like the answer. Good for you.

[DinoDoc]

I'm trying to understand the mindset of such people. Nothing posted here has disabused my of my opinion of them thus far.

[Vanguard]

It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

But they did lie. That much is obvious. They as much as admit it. We clearly had no fear of Iraq's weapons. We invaded as part of a strategy to disrupt terrorism in Iran and Syria.

In other words we wanted to invade Iraq for reasons other than violations of the armistice. So we lied about violations as a pretext for invasion. That's what Bush's comment about "denying safe refuge to terrorists" means.

Ultimately I agree with you. They would have been stupid to lie about it. Since they did lie about it, our conclusion is easy.

The Bush administration is stupid.

[DanS]

Your second reply is no more worthy of a response from me than your first. Sorry.

[Pax]

DD,
It's a genral mindset of a large group of people all over the U.S. My experience is that I have personally been ridiculed on a regular basis for sounding white or proper when I talk to people. I don't let my black friends know I listen to groups like New Order, The Cure, The Smiths, White Stripes, The Rolling Stones, and etc. I don't do certain things around or with them.

I don't know if you can call it racism or what but black people certainly expect you to fit into a certain mold. I think that all of society is like that. We expect boys to certain things. We expect girls to do certain things and blacks expect each other to "act black"
I can only say that things are changing as the black culture further integrates into mainstream american but until that day...

[Pax]

DanS,
More and More information is coming out that the war with Iraq was planned prior to 9/11.

[DanS]

On 9/11 "smart sanctions" were the new policy wrt Iraq. Quite a bit more low-key than war preparations, I bet you would agree.

[notyoueither]

Pax, there really is that much pressure to conform? Is that a good thing?

If there is, then is it right or wrong for people like Rice and Powell to act as if they are not going to particpate in that game?

Were I to see some caucasian kids on the street dressed 'funny' and listening to hip hop, what do you think would be the reaction to me if I were to tell them to 'act white'?

What do we say about public figures who speak out about things that 'debase' 'white culture'.

Is bigotry only offensive in a white person?

[Harovan]

Originally posted by DanS
Yes, I doubt a vast majority of Americans share those feelings. My respect for him hasn't waned at all. And overall, it matters less what the black community thinks than what the white community thinks of him, because whites are the majority. He never was never hired because he was a bridge to the black community. Neither Rice.

Of all members of the Bush administration, my respect for Powell is still the biggest one (duh, for the others my respect is zero), but I consider his reputation tarnished. True, his performance in the UNSC would probably not affect his chances, would he agree to be a presidental candidate. Nevertheless I think, he would be a bad president even in this hypothetical case. Bushs successor will have to stop the decay of the western alliance. Any member of this administration would fail.

I won't jump into the black/white discussion.

I view this whole thing as an error of the intelligence community. There was no intermediation between the Powell and the career civil servants in the intelligence community, so he only said what the intelligence community thought to be the truth. As the president, it's tough to say to the intelligence community to clean up its act, because they can give just as well as they can take, and they do a lot of very good work otherwise.

It's a smart move to dump the error at the intelligence services. They're such convenient scapegoats, especially since nobody can check the facts and the press is largely out. So everyone is free to believe, that it's their fault or not, but if not, he can't prove it because he doesn't have access to the data.

It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

It would be stupid to lie, hence he didn't lie... that's kind of a flawed logic. People do stupid things. May be Powell wouldn't, but he's not the boss.

Anyway, who has seen Powells performance in the UNSC could see even with little knowledge of human nature, that Powell is lying, or more precise, that he cites facts, the truth of which he doesn't believe. He looked so uncomfortable, that even I pitied him. He's a good, honest guy by nature, but such a bad liar. I thought that is the most important trait of any politician.

[mrmitchell]

Re: Black/white discussion:
Saying some common almost-truths isn't "patronizing racism". It isn't racist to say that white people have no rythm, nor is it racist to say all blacks are Democrats, because in both cases there is no racist intent and it isn't insulting. (In fact, IIRC Dims have a huge African-American lead over Repugs. Something like 8 to 1).

Now, if Colin and Condie don't act like a black stereotype would, then it's okay to note it. It's not okay to hate them because of it, though, and I don't think anyone does that (but I only skimmed this thread).

re: Powell's reputation...
I still hold respect for Powell. I don't think he would have trumpeted weapons evidence--especially if he knew it was false--without pressure from fellow administration...

I hold the most respect for him out of anyone in the Bush administation, because, like Sir Ralph, my respect for the others is zero. Nil. Zilch. Inexistent.

[DanS]

His reputation might have been tarnished, but largely overseas. Here at home, I don't think his reputation is tarnished. True, his reputation overseas does impact how effective he is at his job, since he is the secretary of state.

As to the western alliance, France, Germany, Belgium and Greece need to do their part to "heal" to western alliance. I have my doubts as to whether they have much interest in the alliance. Well, at least I doubt France has much interest in the alliance.

Regarding the intelligence community, Bush hasn't dumped the failures on the intelligence services. Neither has Powell. They both know better. The only skirmishes I have seen are the intelligence community giving a warning shot to the administration (and specifically Cheney) over the Niger uranium issue. Powell may be starting down the path of blaming the intelligence community, but probably not.