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Pledge of Allegiance Case Takes Center Stage at SCOTUS

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  • #151
    Originally posted by cinch


    So a teacher has no force of authority over the class?

    The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.
    No they aren't... if you are compelled to do something, you end up actually doing it.

    Comment

    • #152
      Originally posted by Aeson
      If no one's saying it then why even have time allotted for anyone "say it" in class in the first place? Just a waste of time if you think it has no coercive 'benefit', and shouldn't be in the classroom if it does.
      Because the school board is full of idiots. Plus it only takes about 15-20 seconds, a small percentage of the morning announcements.

      Comment

      • #153
        the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital.


        Once again, how many classes have you been in where the pledge was recited? Most students consider it a boring waste of time and don't say anything, even if they are standing and have their hand on their chest.
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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        • #154
          As I recall, most students recited the pledge (which happened only in elementary school).

          The pledge doesn't have force of authority, however it violates the establishment clause (if voluntary school prayer is unconstitutional, I see no reason why the pledge shouldn't be).

          Of course, the most odious aspect to the pledge isn't the "under God" thing, but the the idea that elementary school students should recite loyalty oaths.
          "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
          -Bokonon

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          • #155
            Of course, the most odious aspect to the pledge isn't the "under God" thing, but the the idea that elementary school students should recite loyalty oaths.


            But that doesn't even touch a Constitutional violation whatsoever.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment

            • #156
              I never said it did.
              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
              -Bokonon

              Comment

              • #157
                Then it's just a silly attempt at threadjacking! I'm not going to allow that!
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                Comment

                • #158
                  What are you gonna do about it, punk?
                  "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                  -Bokonon

                  Comment

                  • #159
                    I'll get Fez to throw you out of an airplane!
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment

                    • #160
                      That only works with helicopters.
                      "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                      -Bokonon

                      Comment

                      • #161
                        Kucinich, I did a course on comparitive theology in College. Are you in High School or college? If you are in HS and took that course as an elective, I'm impressed.
                        The worst form of insubordination is being right - Keith D., marine veteran. A dictator will starve to the last civilian - self-quoted
                        And on the eigth day, God realized it was Monday, and created caffeine. And behold, it was very good. - self-quoted
                        Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
                        Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry… I wish it were otherwise.

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                        • #162
                          Originally posted by Ramo
                          As I recall, most students recited the pledge (which happened only in elementary school).
                          You're wrong.

                          The ONLY school in which a significant portion of the students (in this case, all) said the pledge was a Catholic school I went to for 1st-4th grades (until I escaped).

                          Comment

                          • #163
                            Originally posted by shawnmmcc
                            Kucinich, I did a course on comparitive theology in College. Are you in High School or college? If you are in HS and took that course as an elective, I'm impressed.
                            I haven't taken it yet, and probably won't (no room in my schedule ) but it's probably not nearly as deep as a college course - it's only a semester.

                            However, we get plenty of education about this stuff in our Humanities courses (HUM is a paired English-History course that we do for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade).

                            Comment

                            • #164
                              Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                              Would religious people refuse to say the pledge if it didn't have "under God" in it? I can't think why they would.
                              IIRC. the 7th Day Adventists have always refused to say the pledge because their allegiance is to God.

                              Comment

                              • #165
                                Personally, I think anyone who refuses it on grounds like that should lose their citizenship - if your allegiance isn't to the US, then you have no right to be a citizen of it.

                                Comment

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