Pledge of Allegiance Case Takes Center Stage at SCOTUS

[Imran Siddiqui]

When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

When is the last time you've been in a school and seen kids recite a pledge!

[Ted Striker]

SCROTUM

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

When is the last time you've been in a school and seen kids recite a pledge!

This is true. It's pretty much a relic nowadays, and most kids don't recite it beyond the first few grades of elementary, anyway.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not just that, but at least 50%, I'd say, aren't even saying words during the pledge... they are mumbling or just standing, saying nothing. I fail to see coercion when most kids don't even say it!

[Kirnwaffen]

When it is recited in schools, kids are de facto coerced into saying it.

Every last one of those kids has the absolute right to not say it. Doesn't sound like coercion to me.

[cinch]

Originally posted by Kirnwaffen


Every last one of those kids has the absolute right to not say it. Doesn't sound like coercion to me.

???

That is a false dichotomy. Sure, they have the absolute right to not say it, but if the teacher is encouraging the class to stand up and say it, and most other kids are going along with it, the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital. That's influencing someone to do something they may not like or believe in. That's coercion.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
One implication I read from the article, is that there is no religious education in American public schools?

Is this true?

How do American kids learn the differences between Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Budhism, Hindi etc if it is not allowed to be taught in schools?

Perhaps we are seeing the root of the US's foreign policy problems...

It's called "Comparative Religions" - it's an elective course.

EDIT: oh, and we study things like the Ramayana, Taoism, Confucionism, Buddhism, Greek and Roman religions, and both Testaments in English class. Next year, I believe, we do Islam too. (Ironically, we haven't read a single piece of actually English literature in English class all year )

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by cinch


???

That is a false dichotomy. Sure, they have the absolute right to not say it, but if the teacher is encouraging the class to stand up and say it, and most other kids are going along with it, the child will feel obligated or influenced to take part in the recital. That's influencing someone to do something they may not like or believe in. That's coercion.

Uh, no it isn't.

Moreover, you seem to be missing the posts pointing out (and I can second this) that virtually no one says anything during the pledge, and fewer actually say the words.

[cinch]

Originally posted by Kucinich


Uh, no it isn't.

coercion

n 1: the act of compelling by force of authority

_________

"Alright, children, let's all stand and say the pledge of allegiance."

[Kuciwalker]

You just proved yourself wrong.

[cinch]

Originally posted by Kucinich
Moreover, you seem to be missing the posts pointing out (and I can second this) that virtually no one says anything during the pledge, and fewer actually say the words.

(I answer this part of your post in a different post for... no reason.)

Anyway: I don't like that line of argument. It's akin to saying "Well, it's okay that my children are influenced to say 'I hate white people so much and I hope they die' every morning at school, because really, no one pays much attention to the recital... The mostly just mumble the worlds!".

Well, mumble or not, the words are still there, plain as day. Even if they're just being read aloud to the class: it's still getting into the back of their mind, like much of their other schoolwork.

2 + 2 = 4.

America is one nation under God.

Little Billy doesn't know the difference.

[Kuciwalker]

The point isn't that it isn't wrong, the point is that it is absolutely inconsequential.

[cinch]

Originally posted by Kucinich
You just proved yourself wrong.

So a teacher has no force of authority over the class?

The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.

[Aeson]

If no one's saying it then why even have time allotted for anyone "say it" in class in the first place? Just a waste of time if you think it has no coercive 'benefit', and shouldn't be in the classroom if it does.

[Verto]

Originally posted by cinch


So a teacher has no force of authority over the class?

The central authority figure is encouraging the children to stand and recite the pledge. They are not being literally FORCED, obviously, but they are being COMPELLED.

Nope.