How were the american indians subjugated?

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Dissident
All I know is white man did not spread blankets full of disease in my region.

You KNOW this, do you?

The Indians were the aggressors, Sava. They did unprovoked attacks on settlers crossing south of Las Vegas, and even on the Old Spanish Trail. Army outposts were established to get the Indian population under control.

Well, you make a pervasive arguments:

"All those who oppose the US are terrorists."

That is the extent of your logic.

The story of the settlement of the Americas is the story of genocide. If you have any interest in truly understanding reality, invest some time learning about what happened. You might, for a quick read, check the chapter about genocide in Jared Diamond's [The First Chimpanzee.

If you have a good stomach, you could then try Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by PeteH
One problem with just saying "disease killed them" is it implies the deaths were accidental, or even regrettable. The killing of a population by disease was not an unknown tactic when the first settlers arrived in north america, and there are numerous explicit examples of deliberate infection, not to mention the imposition of conditions which cause what would normally be a survivable sickness into a deadly condition. Just as the totals for the jewish holocost don't have a separate category for "died of disease" due to the conditions of the death camps and ghettos, it seems to me a disservice to discount the deaths of so many native americans by making it seem accidental

I know you're all hopped up on a Ward Churchill high, but really. The vast majority of Indian death caused by previously "European" disease was completely unintentional by any rational account. To suppose that somehow individual pirates, fishermen, traders, or small groups of conquistadors or settlers would have had the foresight to create such a pandemic is simply ludicrous. As for the trade blanket tactic, there seems to be evidence that it was used by the English military during the French and Indian War (aka the Seven Years War), though the effect on a population which had already been ravaged for over 200 years by this same disease was in comparison negligible.

I'll grant you every death of every Indian who perished while being relocated as genocide, but it was a drop in the bucket compared to the inadvertent death and destruction brought by disease and trade early on.

[Kuciwalker]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by The Mad Viking
"All those who oppose the US are terrorists."

That is the extent of your logic.[/q]

Uh, he has never said anything even close to that. His point is that the Indians started it. He hasn't claimed high moral ground for the settlers, or anything. Both sides killed civilians.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Kucinich

His point is that the Indians started it.

Well, in that case and by that logic, I reckon Britain and France started the war on Germany in 1939 and that their declaration of war against the nazis was "unprovoked".

[Evil Knevil]

Originally posted by Guardian


Well, in that case and by that logic, I reckon Britain and France started the war on Germany in 1939 and that their declaration of war against the nazis was "unprovoked".

Well of course. The Germans weren't even threatening them! They declared war, so they're the ones that created that whole cycle of aggression.

Seriously though, the vast majority of coastal indians were wiped out inintentionally by disease. Even by Jamestown there had been significant population decreases due to disease spread by previous contacts. Especially by those cowardly french who set up trading posts throughout the hinterlands of America.

However we shouldn't forget that it was King Philip's war and the resulting 'Praying Towns' that finally subjegated the coastal indians and allowed deeper expansion.

In fact it can be argued that the first Indian wars were caused by a mutal build up of animosty between Colonists and Indians.
After the white man won, the boot was firmly on their foot and they practically did what they wanted in their mad rush across the plains.

[Drake Tungsten]

How were the american indians subjugated?

... wit a quickness.

[East Street Trader]

I have no idea how many of the indigenous north american population died by disease and how many were killed in the various disputes with the invaders. I am entirely happy to accept that many more died by disease if that is the received wisdom in the USA. Pestilence well deserves its place beside War among the four riders.

But citing deaths from disease as though this makes everything else that happened between the indians and the invaders insignificant or OK does not make sense.

The US should be - and I rather think it is - ashamed of two things. One is the various well documented atrocities in which indian villages were raided by US military forces and the entire population slaughtered. And the other is the way in which treaty after treaty was negotiated and then just dishonourably torn up.

Those actions were both actions of the federal authorities, not actions of individual settlers involved in local blood feuds.

Nor do they have anything to do with people dieing or not dieing from disease.

I have some sympathy for those involved. The interests of the two groups were irreconcileable. And I would go so far as to say that the notion that nomadic hunter gatherers could continue to dominate large parts of half a continent seems rather unrealistic.

Also the story is not confined to north america. The experience of aboriginal Australians and the incoming settlers there is much the same. (Including the disease part for those who find that aspect so significant.) And even to-day jungle dwelling hunter gatherers are being replaced by incoming farmers in the south american rain forests and in Borneo.

But these are all sad and shaming stories.

As a boy I always wanted to be on the side of the cavaliers against the roundheads, the outlaws against the sheriff of Nottingham and the cowboys against the indians. I might still join the cavaliers (but maybe not) and I might join the outlaws (but maybe not). But I would definately now want to be on the side of the indians.

[debeest]

The vast majority lf the indigenous Americans were killed off by disease, not warfare. Read Plagues and Peoples, or Guns, Germs, and Steel. The diseases were almost entirely accidental, not deliberate, although much later the invaders did rarely deliberately introduce diseases. The native populations were reduced by disease to levels as low as 5%, 10%, 20%, or 30% of the levels when Europeans arrived -- sometimes just between the first contact and the second contact a few years later. This was one of the main reasons that the invaders were able to take over. And the remaining populations were then eradicated by whatever means seemed effective, so the fact that the initial slaughter was not a deliberate act doesn't seem to matter much.

[MrFun]

Re: How were the american indians subjugated?

Originally posted by Dissident

What do you think? Where am I wrong? Enlighten me. This is your thread to discuss late 19th century american history in the west. Or did problems persist into the 20th century? I do recall problems with Pancho Villa, but he was mexican, and had different motivations. Actually it doesn't even have to be late 19th century. There were problems way before that. But it was during that time period that things really began to fall in place it seems to me. Or am I wrong?

Why focus on the late nineteenth century only, when diplomatic relations and conflict with Amerindian tribes of the Great Lakes and Ohio Valley region in the late eighteenth through the early nineteenth century helped shape our transition from the pre-constitutional confederation, to the United States of America with a more centralized government.

Congress in the late eighteenth century before the constitutional convention, and the Congress of United States in the early nineteenth century were frustrated not only with their lack of control over the Amerindian tribes in the regions mentioned above, but also sought ways to control their own white settlers.

This was one of the reasons why Congress sought to increase government centralization -- to better control the direct relations between Amerindians and white settlers, but then this centralization policy did not succeed as originally planned.

[chequita guevara]

Approximately 85% of the Indians in North America were wiped out by disease and warfare (motly disease) by the 19th Century. In the 19th Century, 90% of the remaining Indians were wiped out by warfare and starvation, so that there were slightly more than a quarter million remaining Indians by 1900. Today there are approximately 1.4 million people who are classified as Indians (as many more of us have are of Indian decent but, but not enough to qualifiy for membership in a nation). The U.S. government estimated thre were three million Indians living in what was or what would become the United States in 1800.

As recently as the 1970s, the US government was engaged in genocidal policies: including the destruction of Indian cultures and forced sterilization of resveration women. In the 1980s, Regan proposed abolishing the last reservations altogether. In the 1990s, the U.S. finally forced many Navaho off their lands and gave the land to the more compliant Hpoi, who then sold mineral concessions on the formerly Navaho lands (which the Navaho had refused). In Wisconsin there was a campaign to abolish Indian treaty rights.

[Barinthus]

After the French and Indian wars ( 7 Years War for Europeans), the British drew the Applachian Line of 1763. The purpose of this was to restrict the colonial sprawl to the east of the mountain range and leave the lands to the west to the natives. Greedy colonials ignored the line and ought to expand westwardly, provoking Indians. Anyway just one example.

One tribe - the Cherokees - decided the best course of survival was to become like the white man. They 'civilized' themselves, had houses, owned slaves, grew plantations, and devised their own written language. They were accepted generally by the whites and they were considered as a model for the 'savages.'

That is, until somebody found gold on their lands. Boom! They were expelled and forced to walk what became known as the Trail of Tears to some barren lands in Oklahoma. Off my head, 4,000 to 6,000 Cherokees died on that Trail.

One interesting tidbit - The horses Plain Indians were famous for weren't native to Americas. Those horses were descendants of those brought to the New World by early Spaniard explorers.

Indians had their own share of disease spreading - syphills. Doesn't exactly cancel out the horde of diseases Europeans brought with them, although.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Guardian


Well, in that case and by that logic, I reckon Britain and France started the war on Germany in 1939 and that their declaration of war against the nazis was "unprovoked".

Again, neither he nor I made moral judgements. But yes, Britain and France did declare war on Germany. "Unprovoked" is a moral judgement.

[Dr Strangelove]

Ships of the London Comapny first landed on Virginia soil April 30, 1607. Though they were initially welcomed by the natives 26 days later a force of 200 attacked the settlers. The men built forts and held off a number of attacks until a sort of truce was established the next year. After attacks by the natives resumed in 1609 the settlers destroyed a village and another truce was established. This truce lasted until 1622, when the "Powhatan" tribe attacked in force eradicating nearly half of the English settlers in Virginia. The remnants held out in the forts of Jamestown until relieved by the arrival of ships. The next year, during talks held at a nearby native encampment an English medical doctor, Dr. Butler, surrepititiously poisoned some 500 warriors. The power of the Powhatan Confederacy was broken, never to recover, and from henceforward English settlers would look upon Native Americans as implacable enemies and unworthy of trust.

[Xeones]

Another recommendation for Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. A very complete answer to this question, as well as most other instances where one culture subjugated another.

[Sava]

Both sides killed civilians.

If civilian bodycounts makes someone a terrorist... than the United States is the greatest terrorist nation in the history of the world.