ANALYSIS: An Even-Handed Look at American, European Relations

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ned
Cooperation, if that is what Europe wants, is a two way street. The Europeans have to junk their Bush bashing and fashionable hatred of America.

Why?

How does Bush-bashing affect transatlantic relations? An alliance is supposed to be deep enough to withstand the ephemeral heads of State. Bush-bashing in the public opinion, as well as Chirac bashing in the American public opinion, is definitely no reason for diplomats not to work efficiently.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I was filing it under flights of fancy while I hit the submit button, but... the possibility exists that they will become unwilling to send troops outside of the hemisphere for any reason at all. If that happens there is then a large vacuum. Someone will fill that vacuum. Will they be better or worse than the Yanks?

America wouldn't WANT to do that. That would mean giving up what is essentially our hegemony forever. If someone fills that void, it would suck more for us in the long run.

[Arrian]

Pekka, Spiff,

You guys aren't actually trying to have a serious discussion with Ned are you?

Or are you actually that bored?

-Arrian

[Duvan]

Are you saying Ned is.......unreasonable

[ErikM]

Originally posted by Pekka
ErikM, No. Europe is already powerful. Together with US we have a situation where we call the shots. And even with some disagreements on policies, hey that's the way it is now.

THe thing is, if we stop doing that there will be an opening to new power players, like China.

Europe is powerful? Economically, maybe, although
(i) not as powerful as the US
(ii) much of Europe's economic wellbeing depends on the US as the biggest customer.

Politically, the war in Iraq illustrated rather nicely just how much US administration is concerned with the European opinion.

Open any American newspaper from New York Times to Rednecksburg Daily News and you will find the phrase "US is the only superpower in the modern world" mentioned at least three times.

Well, it's true.

And it's not really a good news.

Last US elections have shown that US voters are not immune to electing, how should I put it politely, less then stellar person, as the President.

Next time, it might be worse.

So the current Euro-US divide is not really about terrorism. It's bigger than that. It is just that US needs a counterweight.

US posters feel upset at US-Euro tensions because they are sure that US motives are pure and benevolent and will always remain such. Unfortunately, all dictators are confident that they are benevolent.

That's all there is to it.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Kucinich
"Manifest destiny" was the justification for the westward expansion, Oncle Boris... I think we gave it up already

I'm not sure if you're being serious here...

ahhhhhhhh biting...

First the journalist says in his paper Americans feel like they have a 'mission'. Then, we hear your president saying that free trade will bring democracy everywhere... and then we see a bunch of Texan cow-boys running into Iraq with some kind of 'duty' and a lame-ass constitution built without much thought towards Iraqi traditions. Now, WTF is a 'mission'? Did they get it from a burning bush?

Free trade is America's new 'manifest destiny', and it's being sold as such to the public.

[Kuciwalker]

The difference is, the US isn't run by a dictator (well, Ashcroft doesn't "run" the US per se... ) - America simply has no real motivation to go to "war for oil" or anything like that. Liberal democracies don't declare war on each other.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I'm not sure if you're being serious here...

ahhhhhhhh biting...

First the journalist says in his paper Americans feel like they have a 'mission'. Then, we hear your president saying that free trade will bring democracy everywhere... and then we see a bunch of Texan cow-boys running into Iraq with some kind of 'duty' and a lame-ass constitution built without much thought towards Iraqi traditions. Now, WTF is a 'mission'? Did they get it from a burning bush?

Free trade is America's new 'manifest destiny', and it's being sold as such to the public.

Well now that you've spelled out that you think free trade = manifest destiny, one can understand what you meant.

Just using the term "Manifest Destiny" without explanation, however, will lead an American who knows his history to think of its historical use: the justification for westward expansion.

-Arrian

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


I'm not sure if you're being serious here...

ahhhhhhhh biting...

First the journalist says in his paper Americans feel like they have a 'mission'. Then, we hear your president saying that free trade will bring democracy everywhere... and then we see a bunch of Texan cow-boys running into Iraq with some kind of 'duty' and a lame-ass constitution built without much thought towards Iraqi traditions. Now, WTF is a 'mission'? Did they get it from a burning bush?

Free trade is America's new 'manifest destiny', and it's being sold as such to the public.

But they don't call it "manifest destiny"

Plus, someone has to police the world. Why not let the group with the means do so?

btw, I'm not supporting the way the admin has handled diplomacy - I think we should be a LOT less provocative. However, I still think that if we think something is the right thing to do, we should try the nice approach and see if other want to help, but if that doesn't work we should "go it alone". We just shouldn't be so frigging obnoxious about it

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Arrian
Well now that you've spelled out that you think free trade = manifest destiny, one can understand what you meant.

Just using the term "Manifest Destiny" without explanation, however, will lead an American who knows his history to think of its historical use: the justification for westward expansion.

Now that's an interesting comment... Outside America, American history is taught with 'manifest destiny' as some sort of driving force behind American policies, that certainly did not end with westward expansion. Everything up to Caribbean intervention and Philippines is seen as a consequence of it. Everything after is seen mostly as a 'neo-imperialism' (America replacing France and England in directing the third world) that was justified to the public with the old arguments of manifest destiny.

[Kuciwalker]

How is it imperialism?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris


Now that's an interesting comment... Outside America, American history is taught with 'manifest destiny' as some sort of driving force behind American policies, that certainly did not end with westward expansion. Everything up to Caribbean intervention and Philippines is seen as a consequence of it. Everything after is seen mostly as a 'neo-imperialism' (America replacing France and England in directing the third world) that was justified to the public with the old arguments of manifest destiny.

The actual phrase "manifest destiny" was the justification for westward expansion. Maybe you're talking about just a general sort of nationalism, but that specific slogan has a specific historical meaning.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by Kucinich
The actual phrase "manifest destiny" was the justification for westward expansion. Maybe you're talking about just a general sort of nationalism, but that specific slogan has a specific historical meaning.

Wait till I browse through my 10th grade history notes...

ok here it is.

It says that the 'manifest destiny' would eventually require that the British North America becomes American. It also mentions an American president who said that he dreamt of the day when the American flag would float over every square mile of Canada.

[DanS]

he dreamt of the day when the American flag would float over every square mile of Canada

Only that part which is rightly ours.

It says that the 'manifest destiny' would eventually require that the British North America becomes American.

That's a bizarre way to define it.

[Gatekeeper]

You speak from the heart, Pekka and, as my sig indicates, I do appreciate that ...