more cracks from europe.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The Vietnamese seem to be perfectly happy having their own country back.

actually no, I've read articles recently where they'd also like some freedoms back. they fought briliantly to defeat a large imperialist power, and now they are licking the **** stick along w/ north korea.

[Az]

For what other reason does Bush insists on not letting the UN in?

It won't become a US satellite? Du-h.

No. This just shows the failure of Bush and makes it more likely his gonna have to involve the UN. Which, unfortunately, doesn't mean that he'll do it.

Involve the UN in doing what, exactly?

[Whaleboy]

has nothing whatsoever to do w/ my point. I was speaking from the vietnamese perspective. not some OMG THE USA ROCKS. obviously tho this thread has been set aside for USA bashing, which seems to even apply to tangents.

I think you'll find that the Vietnamese aren't exactly friends of the USA. And their perspective carries a little more weight than your belief as to what it should be, since (a) they are actually there, living their perspective and (b) yours is tainted somewhat. With what exactly we can only speculate, I would assume some degree of national flag upping, but there is something, since your view differs from actuality.

[GePap]

More reason to go to the UN and make the foreing forces in Iraq part of an internationally approved mandate and not a coolition of the willing.

[yavoon]

the one thing the UN is good for is diffusing blame. afterall if "everyone" is in on it how is anyone to blame?

otherwise the UN is inept, slow, bickering, cumbersome, and lacks fortitude.

[GePap]

And for all of that (even if we were to agree it true, which I don't), at least if you have a legitimate mandate-you don;t have to beg people to stay willing....

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


I think you'll find that the Vietnamese aren't exactly friends of the USA. And their perspective carries a little more weight than your belief as to what it should be, since (a) they are actually there, living their perspective and (b) yours is tainted somewhat. With what exactly we can only speculate, I would assume some degree of national flag upping, but there is something, since your view differs from actuality.

their perspective is far more tainted than mine. they live in a place w/o freedom of the press, in relatively extreme poverty, with no democracy.

sure they have national pride(afterall they're told to have national pride).

and there are vietnamese now who want some freedoms, tho often they get thrown in jail and harrassed.

[Whaleboy]

I've read articles recently where they'd also like some freedoms back.

Link!!

Involve the UN in doing what, exactly?

Runnign Iraq in a neutral, transparent manner. Controlling the oil in a manner open, god forbid, to international scrutiny?

[Az]

That's just name calling, yavoon.

Why do this? just bring examples of UN failure in nation building, in better conditions than the Iraqi one.

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


Link!!



Runnign Iraq in a neutral, transparent manner. Controlling the oil in a manner open, god forbid, to international scrutiny?

sorry its from chinese girl I know=[. buy me scanner, send scanner here. I give u address?

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Azazel
That's just name calling, yavoon.

Why do this? just bring examples of UN failure in nation building, in better conditions than the Iraqi one.

well it lacks support. tho I do believe it is an accurate description.

name calling is poopy pants.

[Az]

Runnign Iraq in a neutral, transparent manner. Controlling the oil in a manner open, god forbid, to international scrutiny?

I remember too well the results of UN nation building in Cambodia. Nothing good came out of there, right?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
Controlling the oil in a manner open, god forbid, to international scrutiny?

Spreading the graft around you mean?

http://www.drudgeretort.com/discuss/viewTopic.php/12242

[Whaleboy]

otherwise the UN is inept, slow, bickering, cumbersome, and lacks fortitude.

As opposed to hegemonic, imperialistic, with a dangerously entrenched institutionalised view of its own global benevolence?

I'd trust the UN anyway. Why does your character assassination of the UN mean that it cannot run Iraq, especially considering that yours is a view even the American govt aren't to loud about?

their perspective is far more tainted than mine. they live in a place w/o freedom of the press, in relatively extreme poverty, with no democracy.

So your view as to how they should feel is more valid than their view as to how they [b]do[/do] feel? . [Anne Robinson]. Your's is not an objective/independent basis upon which to form a view, you have the demerit of "opposing uninvolvement".

sure they have national pride(afterall they're told to have national pride).

IIRC they don't have to salute the flag as schoolchildren.

and there are vietnamese now who want some freedoms, tho often they get thrown in jail and harrassed.

Which gives them a pro-US disposition? I somehow doubt that. You need to show your positions with good evidence here.

[Whaleboy]

I remember too well the results of UN nation building in Cambodia. Nothing good came out of there, right?

You got me by the balls on that one!

Nonetheless, it is my view that especially since they are under the eyes of international scrutiny, it is an organisation populated by somewhat different individuals, and facing the threat from the US (thus need to do a good job) that the UN could do a better job at nation building now. Certainly far better than the USA. *Whaleboy looks in the direction of Afghanistan*.

Don't get me wrong, the UN is a pretty screwed up organisation. It's inefficient, slow, and plagued by some of the same problems the League of Nations faced. Nonetheless, when building a nation that isn't merely a satellite state (and unlike the UN, the same people are in charge pretty much in the USA that saw disasterous policies like that, for example, Iraq and Afghanistan in the 80's), a single nation that has proved itself untrustworthy in this regard (and I am more suspicious because of the blatent zeal of the US to go to war) is going to do a worse job than the UN. It's own fatal subjectivity is cause enough for that.