First Darwin and then Homos? Never!

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Arrian:

Going to cluster your posts.

Yes, I am showing my true colors.

I get tired of fencing with the tip.



Really. In all these threads, all I can see is the argument, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, or that we should let them do what they want.

I don't find that a credible case to effect change on society.

You miss the boat regarding the burden of proof. "Society" is nothing more nor less than the collective body of individuals who live within a given political and cultural framework. The state is the party which has chosen to "effect change" on society by using it's power to impose and enforce various restrictions of personal liberties and the rights of indiciduals to do what they please.

Therefore, it is up to "society" and the state to justify the burdens, impositions and restrictions they impose on those personal liberties of individuals, and to do so within the established context of individual rights, and in the US, within the context of the Constitution.

Legalizing gay marriage is nothing more than removal of a state imposed restriction on individual rights. The burden is on those who wish to proscribe marriage between two individuals of the same sex, while making it available to any legally competent couple of opposite sexes, to justify the maintenance of that proscription of individual liberty.

Now try to do so, other than on terms of "I don't like it" or "It's against God's law," neither of which are relevant to the secular framework of state power under the Constitution. Either of those reasons are perfectly valid for any religious denomination to bar sacramental gay marriage, but they don't count when it comes to state authority.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by loinburger

I was under the impression that bi people were attracted to both men and women, and didn't flip-flop in their preferences as you say they do.

Exactly -- bisexuality is not flipflopping. Bisexuality is a sexual orientation as deeply ingrained as homosexuality and heterosexuality.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Prove it.

Geez, 'round we go. This is just a repeat of my unanswered arguments to BK from a previous thread.

For one, Changing Sexual Orientation: A Consumers' Report by Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder

Out of 202 "ex-gays" studied, only 6 claimed to still be "converted," The study found that over 178 of the men experienced side effects to these therapies that included significant levels of stress, anxiety, shame, depression and even suicidal thoughts or behaviors.

From the APA:

Reparative Therapy

The term "reparative therapy" refers to psychotherapy aimed at eliminating homosexual desires and is used by people who do not think homosexuality is one variation within human sexual orientation, but rather still believe homosexuality is a mental disorder. The most important fact about "reparative therapy," also sometimes known as "conversion" therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a "cure."

Now, have the rep therapy people produced ANY studies as to the effectiveness of their attempts? No, not all. Organizations like Exodus are completely silent on their "success rates," and they've had so many high-profile failures, it's funny - such as John Paulk, a spokesman subsequently found in a Baltimore gay bar, and the founders of Exodus, who are now a couple who denounce such groups for the shams they are.

There's no evidence that attempts to change someone's orientation works whatsoever, and since it is BK's argument that it can be changed and that should be a rationale for a law, then the burden of proof is on HIM to show it can be done so and is therefore not one of the fixed traits he is (rather arbitrarily) using as a standard.

Of course, we have his argument is torpedoed by the fact that laws about rights not based on such unchangeable quantities, as the laws for religious freedom demonstrate. Religion is certainly far more of a choice than sexual orientation is.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Well, there are a lot of bi people out there who clearly can like men one day and women the next. So they are a counter-example to any proof.

Thanks for proving to us you haven't a clue as to what you're talking about.

[Gibsie]

Course, Rogan and Ben will just make the exact same claims next time the non-issue of gays choosing their sexuality comes around. And we'll be dumb enough to respond, yet again!

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Out of 202 "ex-gays" studied, only 6 claimed to still be "converted,"

So, by your own admission, 'gays' can be 'converted' to being straight.

You really need to figure out what you want to say

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by MrFun
Exactly -- bisexuality is not flipflopping. Bisexuality is a sexual orientation as deeply ingrained as homosexuality and heterosexuality.

This is such bull****. Do you actually know anyone who is bi? Do you live in a cave, hiding away from them in case you are "contaminated"? Bi people go through phases, prefering women for a while and then when a cute guy comes along, prefering men for a while. It is not 'flipflopping' as you crudely put it, but changing preference with mood.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Gibsie
And we'll be dumb enough to respond, yet again!

Don't worry, we have no doubts that you are dumb enough....

[Ming]

Let's stop with the person insults... we can continue saying the same old arguments back and forth as usuall... but personal insults will be rewarded with a restriction.

[Gibsie]

Rogan, you genuinely think that a bisexual person is exclusively attracted to only one gender at a time, that if they might fancy a guy then they don't fancy girls at the same time?

(I'm not being dumb with this repond- I'm being flabbergasted by the audacity of such a claim!)

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


So, by your own admission, 'gays' can be 'converted' to being straight.

You really need to figure out what you want to say

Stop distorting other people's arguments. Boris is NOT claiming that it is possible to convert one's sexual orientation.

I would vouch that those six people who have claimed they have fundamentally changed their sexual orientation have a strong enough pyschological denial of part of what they really are, that they can maintain an outward appearance by marrying someone of the opposite gender, buying a house with a white picket fence, and getting a pet dog named Fido -- then popping out two and a half kids.

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Gibsie
Rogan, you genuinely think that a bisexual person is exclusively attracted to only one gender at a time, that if they might fancy a guy then they don't fancy girls at the same time?

I suppose it depends on the individual, but generally they do not chase everything that moves. They find someone attractive and date them for a while, then split up and might date someone of a different gender. They are not (usually) some sort of sex crazed demons who need to have sex with both sexes at once!

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by MrFun
Stop distorting other people's arguments. Boris is NOT claiming that it is possible to convert one's sexual orientation.

I never said he does. I pointed out that he claimed one thing and used this 'study' to (presumably unintentionally) prove the opposite.

I would vouch that those six people who have claimed they have fundamentally changed their sexual orientation have a strong enough pyschological denial of part of what they really are

So now you are claiming that they are really still gay but just in denial. What unbelievable arrogance and bigotry!

Hey, maybe we are all gay, and just in denial

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


This is such bull****. Do you actually know anyone who is bi? Do you live in a cave, hiding away from them in case you are "contaminated"? Bi people go through phases, prefering women for a while and then when a cute guy comes along, prefering men for a while. It is not 'flipflopping' as you crudely put it, but changing preference with mood.

You . . . . (must refrain from insulting).


Reread my freaking, god-damn post! I explicitly stated that bisexuality is NOT flip-flopping. But you still claim that bisexuality is a "phase" which is blantant, ignorant disrespect for bisexuals, since it is not a "phase."

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by MrFun
But you still claim that bisexuality is a "phase" which is blantant, ignorant disrespect for bisexuals, since it is not a "phase."

I never claimed that bisexuality was a phase - I claimed that bi people had phases of prefering one gender. Stop lieing please.